C.C.

No. You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored. I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there? Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries or non arm related? I agree that Baker rode Prior and Wood, but any manager would do the exact same thing. You have a chance to get to the WS, you do whatever it takes. I'm not defending Baker as a great manager. In fact I can't stand the guy! But I don't fault him for 2003. We had a chance to get to the WS and for me there was no next year at the time...

No. You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a gmae is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

How is it moot when it directly implicates Bakers bad decision making when it comes to pitching, the whole reason for this argument? Does Baker make that call or Hendry?

Wood problems were way before Baker You're wrong. In 1999 he had his TJ surgery, which was the culmination of a lifetime's worth of abuse. In 2000 he came back in May, and had your typical "back from elbow surgery" season. From 2001-2003 he made over 90 starts. His current woes began after a 2003 season that saw him throw 3545 pitches, which IIRC was the most of anyone in the league. 2003 also saw him throw the following #'s of pitches in games: 122 on April 12th, 141 pitches on May 10th, 121 on May 15th, 126 on June 29th, 129 on July 9th, 130 on July 19th, and 125 on August 27th. In total, he had 13 starts not including the postseason with more than 120 pitches. Wood's problems begin the season after Baker arrived. There's no way around it. People can talk about mechanics or conditioning all they want, but the way he was worked in 2003 was asking for him to break down. No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series. It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year. you are dead wrong, people were openly questioning what Baker was doing in 2003 by leaving these guys in games for so long. I recall one game in particular, I believe it was in Florida when Baker left Wood in a game to throw well over 120 pitches in 90+ degree heat so he could get a complete game. Dusty thinks too much about the battle which causes him to lose the war. If I recall correctly, Z faded at the end of 2003 due to the fact he had never worked that many innings or thrown that many pitches in a season before. Wait a sec. Z didn't fade just overly pumped up. He was hitting 100 MPH on the gun in the playoffs. I do concur that some of those Wood starts had me scatching my head but to put the blame on Baker isn't entirely right. Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

Wood problems were way before Baker You're wrong. In 1999 he had his TJ surgery, which was the culmination of a lifetime's worth of abuse. In 2000 he came back in May, and had your typical "back from elbow surgery" season. From 2001-2003 he made over 90 starts. His current woes began after a 2003 season that saw him throw 3545 pitches, which IIRC was the most of anyone in the league. 2003 also saw him throw the following #'s of pitches in games: 122 on April 12th, 141 pitches on May 10th, 121 on May 15th, 126 on June 29th, 129 on July 9th, 130 on July 19th, and 125 on August 27th. In total, he had 13 starts not including the postseason with more than 120 pitches. Wood's problems begin the season after Baker arrived. There's no way around it. People can talk about mechanics or conditioning all they want, but the way he was worked in 2003 was asking for him to break down. No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series. It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year. Again, please explain the Wood situation last year. Why did he continue to pitch? Were we in playoff contention then? Please advise. Thanks. I agree he should've been shut down, no doubt! But I think it's a rather moot point now...

I don't have that. Here's what I have Pitcher abuse points 2003 Kerry Wood 2nd Mark Prior 3rd Carlos Zambrano 11th Pitcher abuse points 2004 Carlos Zambrano 3rd Kerry Wood 16th Pitcher abuse points 2005 Carlos Zambrano 2nd Mark Prior 3rd Pitcher abuse points 2006 Carlos Zambrano 3rd Cool thanks! I was looking for these stats. I can't believe Zito is number 5.

Wood problems were way before Baker You're wrong. In 1999 he had his TJ surgery, which was the culmination of a lifetime's worth of abuse. In 2000 he came back in May, and had your typical "back from elbow surgery" season. From 2001-2003 he made over 90 starts. His current woes began after a 2003 season that saw him throw 3545 pitches, which IIRC was the most of anyone in the league. 2003 also saw him throw the following #'s of pitches in games: 122 on April 12th, 141 pitches on May 10th, 121 on May 15th, 126 on June 29th, 129 on July 9th, 130 on July 19th, and 125 on August 27th. In total, he had 13 starts not including the postseason with more than 120 pitches. Wood's problems begin the season after Baker arrived. There's no way around it. People can talk about mechanics or conditioning all they want, but the way he was worked in 2003 was asking for him to break down. No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series. It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

That I agree on!

I don't know about that? Wood problems were way before Baker and has Z really been overworked this year? And most of Prior injuries have been accidents...i.e. Linedrive off his elbow, collision with Giles....Or non-arm problems Achillies heel, Oblique Muscle...Etc... Baker was still part of the decision making process that had Wood pitching from the bullpen at the end of last year instead of having his surgery then. And Z has thrown a lot of pitches this year. I don't have the numbers, but I don't think he's thrown under 100 pitches most of the year, and he's near the top of pitcher abuse points. And in 2003, Prior threw a ton. His injury actually helped him get a break, if I remember right. And did it really matter if Wood got surgery a month earlier? He still never really made it back for 2006. And Z is going to throw a lot of pitches. He's a power pitcher that walks and K's alot of batters. It's unavoidable unless he learns a bit more control. Its one thing to throw "a lot of pitches." Its entirely another to lead the league in pitches thrown almost every year. Can you show me the stats that say Z leads the league in pitches thrown every year ?

In what way shape or form? Well, Pierre is considered to be a marginally bigger threat on the bases than Posednik. Also, as much as we have been upset at Pierre for how he plays center, Posednik is that much worse. When their offensive games are so similar, the tiebreaker should either be amount of contract (which I don't know what either of them will ask for) or their other attributes, which Pierre is better at. It would still be a very close call between the two players, but the fact that a natural center fielder by both speed and the limited offense that Podsednik brings was moved to left is a telling sign I think. Considered to be marginally bigger threat on the bases? By whom? Pods is more successful stealing. And he makes considerably less money. You can't just claim Pierre is "better in every category" and expect not to be called on that completely made up and arbitrary statement. I'm fine with being called out-especially since Pierre has been more successful at stealing bases each of the last 2 seasons. 2005-Podsednik-59 steals, 23 times caught Pierre- 57 steals, 17 times caught 2006-Podsednik-30 steals, 13 times caught Pierre- 38 steals, 12 times caught Podsednik's percentage is going down and is getting caught much more frequently than earlier in his career, while Pierre is staying level to his career. So yes, Pierre is now considered to be marginally better on the basepaths. Great post and I didn't realize that at all.

I don't know about that? Wood problems were way before Baker and has Z really been overworked this year? And most of Prior injuries have been accidents...i.e. Linedrive off his elbow, collision with Giles....Or non-arm problems Achillies heel, Oblique Muscle...Etc... Baker was still part of the decision making process that had Wood pitching from the bullpen at the end of last year instead of having his surgery then. And Z has thrown a lot of pitches this year. I don't have the numbers, but I don't think he's thrown under 100 pitches most of the year, and he's near the top of pitcher abuse points. And in 2003, Prior threw a ton. His injury actually helped him get a break, if I remember right. And did it really matter if Wood got surgery a month earlier? He still never really made it back for 2006. And Z is going to throw a lot of pitches. He's a power pitcher that walks and K's alot of batters. It's unavoidable unless he learns a bit more control.

Schimdt will end up with the Yankees... You mean Seattle. Count on it. The only saving grace is does he want to pitch in the AL? Well he grew up near Seattle, still has his home there, and has said many times how much he'd love to play for Seattle in his career. Since this is probably his last big contract, I'd say it's now. A lot of people in Seattle are practically pencilling him in. I think the Mariners will comply. Didn't read that. Thanks for the info...Okay scratch Schimdt off out list.

I don't know about that? Wood problems were way before Baker and has Z really been overworked this year? And most of Prior injuries have been accidents...i.e. Linedrive off his elbow, collision with Giles....Or non-arm problems Achillies heel, Oblique Muscle...Etc...

LOL! The weather is a perfect pitching day. I'm calling for a complete game shutout for big Z today!

Do you guys realize that Rich Hill is the Cubs oldest member of the Current Cubs starting staff? Pretty amazing eh?

Schimdt will end up with the Yankees... You mean Seattle. Count on it. The only saving grace is does he want to pitch in the AL?

Schimdt will end up with the Yankees...

I like your faith, but it'll take a act of god for this team to get back in this thing...

GO ZZZZZZZ!!!!!!

I could see that, as well as the Cubs going after guys like Kip Wells, Tony Armas Jr, etc. etc. Something tells me...Jason Schmidt/Barry caliber pitcers WON'T even get a phone call from Hendry. Call it a hunch. Heck, I could see Hendry borrowing Benny the Bulls---provided he's out on bond---and throwing a parade to get guys like Jeff Suppan to sign in Chicago.. I was listening to Kap and Waddle (sports central) a few days ago, and Kap said that he's heard that Hendry and the Cubs are going after two high priced Free Agents this off season, and are making a huge push for both of them...

Man what do we do if ARAM walks. I mean is he worth the 14-15 million he'll get from the other teams? With alot of the big markets looking for a FA someone will overpay for him...

Why doesn't Murton bat second? I mean every day...

All right Izturis starts a little rally...And you guys said he stinks. :wink:

Really? Now that is stupid.

What has Guzman, Ryu, and Hill shown, besides one good start by Hill the last time out, that makes them more ready? You might as well keep Marmol in there for the remainder of the year. What do you have to lose?