And wrong. Prove it. Hahah, why? So we can sit here and argue for an hour? I got an idea, I'll go argue with a brick wall, it will be just as much fun. It's pointless. You've heard it all before. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've made your outdated opinion heard. If you want to continue believing that wins are an effective way to measure a pitchers worth, be my guest. Someone has to be wrong. IMB you've got a bad problem here on this board of bullying people. Well I won't be bullied by you. 1. I never made any of the claims you attribute to me. I never said they are an effective way to measure a pitcher's worth. I said they are just another piece of evidence. 2. I asked you to back up what you say with facts and you come back with this pathetic post. You are a smart guy, do some work. There are lots of people like you who blinding follow what the "in crowd" says. I've got an idea try thinking and do some research.