Remember Some Cubs: Sweet Swinging Starlin

I had such hopes for Starlin. In the end I think he's a step above Kevin Orie and Bobby Hill. Great promise but didn't live up to the hype

Poor Starlin fell to the same fate that got Josh Vitters and Jason Heyward. Rather than be content with 15ish HR power, the hitting gurus felt they had to tinker with their swings in order to unlock more power and in the end it destroyed their swing entirely. 

3 hours ago, Cubs70 said:

I had such hopes for Starlin. In the end I think he's a step above Kevin Orie and Bobby Hill. Great promise but didn't live up to the hype

He didn't live up to the hype, but he ended up with a 11-year career and made over $70 million while making a few all-star games.

Starlin Castro is currently 33.

4 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Poor Starlin fell to the same fate that got Josh Vitters and Jason Heyward. Rather than be content with 15ish HR power, the hitting gurus felt they had to tinker with their swings in order to unlock more power and in the end it destroyed their swing entirely. 

Castro was nothing like Vitters or Heyward. Vitters was just not good, period. Castro was a decent hitter but not a hard worker. That is what cost him. Heyward was a hard worker but his swing always sucked. They are all totally different players who failed all for different reasons. And, IMO none failed because of hitting gurus messing with them. 

Starlin was really good at just putting the ball in play in his first few years, at the cost of having a disciplined approach. He got a lot of singles on pitchers pitches. Trying to unlock more power was logical, but the step that needed to be taken was a more measured approach, and he just never made that leap. 

His debut was incredible though. Extremely memorable. He was a lot of fun those first few seasons.

1722 career hits

2 hours ago, Derwood said:

1722 career hits

Yep. I think some people misremember him. He didn’t ever really change. No one tried changing him. Hell, his 5th year with the Cubs he has his highest Ops+, and that was only 115. He was a decent ballplayer who had a decent xaeeee, period. No one ruined him. He just never developed behind his first year. He was always an average hitter. Which is a fine career. 

2 hours ago, Derwood said:

1722 career hits

The 1615 hits stat was specifically before he turned 30-years old (it ranks 47th all time before a player's 30th birthday). 

34 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

Yep. I think some people misremember him. He didn’t ever really change. No one tried changing him. Hell, his 5th year with the Cubs he has his highest Ops+, and that was only 115. He was a decent ballplayer who had a decent xaeeee, period. No one ruined him. He just never developed behind his first year. He was always an average hitter. Which is a fine career. 

He started trying to pull the ball more.

7 minutes ago, Tryptamine said:

He started trying to pull the ball more.

Look at his stats. He was basically the same player when he retired as he was when he started. A guy who was right aeousb league average. He was an ok player. Nothing more. And neve more. 

A few things on Starlin Castro: one, he did start pulling the ball more (and I'll show that in a minute) but also, it didn't ruin him. That feels like a revisionist history. 

The idea that Castro was some excellent hitter in his young career just doesn't hold water. Through his first four seasons, he was a 95 wRC+ hitter. Was he young? Sure, he was just 22 by the end of that sample, but it was clear he wasn't a superstar offensive force regardless of his ability to make contact with the baseball. It was slightly better than the average SS (which hovered in the high 80's for wRC+) but it was also clear he needed to get better if he was going to be anything more.

In 2014, Castro had his best offensive season in his career, a 117 wRC+ season. You know what he did more than he did in his previous four seasons? He pulled the baseball almost 8% more than previous norms. He hit more home runs per fly balls. He hit less ground balls. It is also true he was not as good the next season, but he also stopped walking so much. That's not because he was pulling the ball less, he made an approach change that never seemed to get fixed consistently as this skill would come and go year in and year out. He dropped his walk totals to below 4%. His next 100+ wRC+ season? Go figure it was when his walk rates jumped back up the next two seasons. Back down to 4.1% in 2019, and where did his wRC+ go? Back to 91.

The narrative of "he pulled baseballs and was ruined doesn't appear to be supported by data. He was a decent hitter who had his best seasons when he hit for more power (likely because he pulled the ball more). He stopped walking to much and his offense tanked. Castro's issue were approach on his end, being too much of a free swinger, not because he was pulling the ball. But even then, when he wasn't pulling the ball, it's not like he was some consistent force at the plate either. His 95 wRC+ in his first four seasons was very close to his last 3 seasons, when he put up a 91 wRC+ with Miami and Washington.  

7 hours ago, 1908_Cubs said:

A few things on Starlin Castro: one, he did start pulling the ball more (and I'll show that in a minute) but also, it didn't ruin him. That feels like a revisionist history. 

The idea that Castro was some excellent hitter in his young career just doesn't hold water. Through his first four seasons, he was a 95 wRC+ hitter. Was he young? Sure, he was just 22 by the end of that sample, but it was clear he wasn't a superstar offensive force regardless of his ability to make contact with the baseball. It was slightly better than the average SS (which hovered in the high 80's for wRC+) but it was also clear he needed to get better if he was going to be anything more.

In 2014, Castro had his best offensive season in his career, a 117 wRC+ season. You know what he did more than he did in his previous four seasons? He pulled the baseball almost 8% more than previous norms. He hit more home runs per fly balls. He hit less ground balls. It is also true he was not as good the next season, but he also stopped walking so much. That's not because he was pulling the ball less, he made an approach change that never seemed to get fixed consistently as this skill would come and go year in and year out. He dropped his walk totals to below 4%. His next 100+ wRC+ season? Go figure it was when his walk rates jumped back up the next two seasons. Back down to 4.1% in 2019, and where did his wRC+ go? Back to 91.

The narrative of "he pulled baseballs and was ruined doesn't appear to be supported by data. He was a decent hitter who had his best seasons when he hit for more power (likely because he pulled the ball more). He stopped walking to much and his offense tanked. Castro's issue were approach on his end, being too much of a free swinger, not because he was pulling the ball. But even then, when he wasn't pulling the ball, it's not like he was some consistent force at the plate either. His 95 wRC+ in his first four seasons was very close to his last 3 seasons, when he put up a 91 wRC+ with Miami and Washington.  

My point was similar to what you are saying. No one ruined Castro. He was never a great hitter. People exaggerate his ability when he came up. He was fine. He was an ok player. And regardless of how he did it year after year, his end numbers were pretty similar his whole career. Maybe he did pull the ball more as he got older. Maybe he did adjust to do what “the hitting gurus” wanted him to do. The fact is his entire career he was basically around an average hitter. No one ruined him. Started right around 100ops+, got to 117 one year but ended up right around 100 for a career.

On 11/25/2023 at 5:37 PM, chopsx9 said:

Starlin Castro is currently 33.

what the hell

On 11/25/2023 at 7:11 PM, Derwood said:

1722 career hits

crazy that he's just 33. I remember Jersey saying something during Starlin's rookie year about how easy it would be for him to get to 3,000 hits. 

I feel like Starlin is a decent comp for Matt Shaw's downside. 

12 hours ago, Tim said:

I feel like Starlin is a decent comp for Matt Shaw's downside. 

90th percentile, Jeff Kent?

Dude was solid/good for 3 of his 5 seasons as a Cubs, which means too many Cubs fans do the very Cubs Fan Thing of acting like he was a disaster, both when he was on the team and to this day.

On 11/28/2023 at 9:18 AM, CubinNY said:

90th percentile, Jeff Kent?

Righthanded Chase Utley?