jdelaney5150

Not a contradiction at all. Z has said publicly that he will be looking for "Zito money" and yes in a perfect world Z's performance over the last few years and future projections would earn him more than Zito. And you are right in saying that pre-arbi, arbi, and FA contracts are all different but that just further illustrates that what Z is basing his worth on (the Zito contract) is incorrect. He rightfully should be comparing himself to the Oswalt and Carpenter deals, and that is why I think the Cubs are in a strength position here. Yes, that is the definition of commodity that I am using, although I would shy away from using the term "common". But easily replaceable is the key. Again, using the Ferrari example, there aren't a lot of them but if you have one and demolish it as long as you have the money you can go out and get yourself another one that is indistinguishable from the one you had. If you don't think Z fits that, I think you overvalue him. Over the last 4 years, Z has averaged 15 wins and a 3.3 ERA. I think that $15-$17 million per year on the FA market can buy you that kind of production in almost any given year. I don't think that every player is a commodity. Albert Pujols is not, because he can not be replaced at any price.

That makes no sense. You can't "just go out and sign the #1 FA pitcher on the market next year". You are devaluing top notch pitchers by referring them as commodities. Of course you can. Why wouldn't you be able to? And it is not at all devaluing something by calling it a commodity. A Ferrari is a commodity, and it's pretty valuable. It just means that it is replaceable, and $17 million pitchers are.

I'd rather have Z, Oswalt, or Carpenter over Zito. Yeah, I have two problems with this story. First off, you are making it seem like Zito is the greatest pitcher in baseball. That's not close to the case. Also, calling extraordinary players commodities is just inaccurate. Commodities suggest readily available and significant supply, not to mention of equal value. Extraordinary players are by their very nature extraordinary, ie not commodities. They are worth the money because those are the guys that make a difference between average and great. Sure, you'd rather get your great players at cheap cost, but that can only happen if you grow them internally. They are few and far between and hard to develop, however. I would much rather overpay a great player and fill the rest of the spots with replacable commodities (guys like Marquis, Izturis, Jones), than overpay those replacable commodities and let a great player walk. I agree with your statement that the Cubs don't have motivation to give into Zambrano's arby price, or even the midway point. But the reasoning you use to get to that point isn't really logical at all. I want to stress again that the Zito comparison was metaphorical. I used Zito because he was the #1 FA pitcher on the market this winter, and my point was that if your ace is demanding the price tag of the #1 FA pitcher, you don't lose that much by letting him walk because you can go out and spend roughly the same amount and sign the #1 FA pitcher on the market the next year. Yes, sometimes there are really lean FA years but there are also really full FA years too so I think it evens out. I'm also not suggesting that you should in fact let him walk, just saying that knowing that you can gives you the position of strength.

I'd rather have Z, Oswalt, or Carpenter over Zito. I would too, and that actually just further proves the Cubs case that the Zito contract was not a true indication of his worth and thus not a good basis for Z to base his compensation on.

I think a lot of those thinking Z has the strong hand here can't see the forest for the trees. If Z is demanding Zito money, the Cubs have absolutely nothing to lose by letting him walk? Why? Because you know what you can get for Zito money? Zito! I am being metaphorical here, but the point is when you let a guy who is demanding top dollar walk, he is very replaceable. It is when you get the top guys at a discount (a la Oswalt and Carpenter) where it is valuable. Extraordinary players are not that valuable when they come at exorbitant prices; they are a commodity. Extraordinary players at discount prices are invaluable. Hence the Cubs have absolutely no motivation to give in to Z on this one. Z is much closer to Oswalt and Carpenter than he is to Zito, and the arby hearing will bear this out and improve the Cubs position. At that point, talks will turn towards a 5-year deal in the $75 million range (which will give him a nice ~$4 million bump this year). If Z wins, a 5-year deal will be in the $95 million range, and I don't think the Cubs have any reason to go that high with him.

Either you are a politician or you used to be on a high school debate team. When confronted with opposition, rather than support or retract your position, you just change the argument. I also liked that you have quoted two separate articles in this thread; 1 that says that the 9th inning man is an entirely different breed and 1 that says you can throw just anyone out there. Yet you have not stated that you support either one as your personal opinion, which pretty much still gives you the option to argue from any angle. That is skillful, but I will not be baited. As for saves being all important, you are right that they are not. I was using poetic license; meaning that is the first stat the layperson throws out when comparing closers. See; a direct response to what you challenged me on. That's not so hard is it?

I dunno, I'm a big fan of Gagne in 2003. Also an incredible year. I just think sometimes people forget how good Mesa was for that one season. Yes, but that's not what you originally said. You said you'd take Mesa over Smith and that is just an utterly ridiculous statement. Certain stats can be argued; others can't. Pick any stat you want; Smith beats Mesa in all of them and flat out dominates in most of them. K/IP Mesa: .67 Smith: .97 BB/IP Mesa: .42 Smith: .38 ERA: Mesa: 4.27 Smith: 3.03 And of course the all important one of Saves Mesa: 320 Smith: 478 Smith has 1.5 times the saves Mesa has in over 200 LESS innings. That is why Smith is being considered for the Hall of Fame and Mesa will never come anywhere close. One great year does not make someone a great player. Otherwise by your argument we need to include Brady Anderson as one of the great sluggers of the last 10 years.

This board has so many pessimists I'm surprised that most of you can find a reason to get out of bed in the morning. Seriously, after reading through most of these posts I just want to go run outside, find the nearest lake, and drown myself in it. Scott Eyre is good. Has been ever since he came over from the AL. I like good players signing with my team. End of story. I don't think I'll come to this board much anymore. All most of you do is criticize the ever-living-h*ll out of every move, be it minor or major, because it's not the 1 top tier free agent you wanted us to sign. That's just pathetic, and it makes me ashamed to be associated with all of you. I don't contribute much, so I know I won't be missed. But allow me to say that in general I see more intelligent, objective analysis on the cbs sportsline and cubs.com message boards (which are well documented as completely useless).

I think I might die of shock if anything resembling a positive thought ever came from you. The Cubs obviously bring you only pain and misery, so why do you bother watching them?

Have you considered the possibility that A-Ram's quad is still hurting him and he is unavailable?

I'd actually like to see him PH - as long as it's for Macias (assuming A-Ram is unavailable).

I always wonder how tiring it is to play baseball when you are at home and the other team has been traveling. The team has no excuse for its lackluster efforts as of late. Err...this 18 game stretch included a road trip to Pittsburgh & St. Louis and then they travelled home ALL without a day off. You work your job 18 straight days with 3 travel days included and see if you are tired at the end of it. Sheesh I wish my job was to take BP a few hours before gametime, stand motionless in a field for half of 3 hours, sit on a bench for most of the other half, and once in a while swing a bat at a moving ball. That is sooo tough..... Wow, that is just flat out one of the most ignorant statements ever made. Next time you attend a baseball game, look at the players in the field that aren't involved in the play. They are ALL moving, and most of them are sprinting, to get into position to backup fielders. Anyone who has ever played baseball in any kind of competitive environment knows that you get VERY tired if you play the game correctly. Not to mention just the sheer fact of being in the heat.

OK, we've been pretty solid ourselves in the 8th inning the last week. 2-3-4 coming up; let's go get the lead back!

Teams with heart don't let that affect them. So when the Marlins collapsed last year in September like the Cubs that means they have no heart? I love when a team's shortcomings get blamed on a completely abstract concept. Objectively, their offense is tired and their bullpen is bad.

And again with the second guessing. MrWood is the only one that said to pull Prior after the 7th. In this situation, Dusty's hands are tied. There is nobody trustworthy in the pen except Dempster and we need him for the 9th. Yesterday and today are both products of not having a decent arm in the pen. Also, you cannot expect to win too many games when you only score 2 runs at home.

He's got two more in him. Get him outta there Prior at 99 pitches is a far better option than anything we have in the bullpen for the 8th. He's pitched over 110 already in a game since he's been back, and it's not too hot out today, he'll be fine. Give us one more Mark and turn it over to Dempster! Maybe, but a pinch hitter would have been valuable right there. On the other hand, not having anyone up in the bullpen is not such a great idea . . .

Especially on the radio in the 6th. At least on TV you can still see what's happeining even if they're not talking about it.

He's got two more in him. Get him outta there Prior at 99 pitches is a far better option than anything we have in the bullpen for the 8th. He's pitched over 110 already in a game since he's been back, and it's not too hot out today, he'll be fine. Give us one more Mark and turn it over to Dempster!

It says that Weltazar is from Missouri, so presumably it's ESPN radio there saying it, not ESPN radio in Chicago. It certainly is possible that he's a troll but it is also possible that ESPN radio there is going on bad information. I think Rich Hill would be involved in any deal, so I think you can be pretty sure that if this doesn't materialize before his start tomorrow that it's not happening.

IMB! called out the double switch from the moment it happened. Yes he did. And you will note that he was not among the ones continually harping on it after it didn't work out. Others that were silent before, however . . .

The 2nd guessing on this board is getting really old. There were no posts after the double-switch was made, only after Hollandsworth struck out. Nobody complained about Ohman being in for the 2nd inning until after the Gonzalez HR. Yes, the Cubs are frustrating right now. It's very easy to see that this team is very, very tired right now. Playing in that heat in St. Louis took a lot out of them and it is showing. I look for them to have a lot more energy after the off day Monday. Hopefully, it's after no worse than a 2-2 weekend.

I'll pass. Too much money on his contract, and we don't need another Sosa type player who only thinks of himself. I'm sorry but Manny and Sammy are polar opposites. They may both seem like jackasses to us but Manny is beloved in that clubhouse. He is also 10X the hitter Sammy ever was. He is a perennial AVG threat with great power and discipline at the plate. There are a lot of teams who must be kicking themselves for not grabbing Manny when they could have picked up his contract with out a trade. His stock was obviously at an all time low, but he finished up strong. He is worth the money he's being paid and the Cubs could afford to pay him. However I don't realistically see him ever wearing Cubbie Blue. And before Sammy fans try to berate me for saying Manny dwarfs Sammy... Career Sosa: .275 AVG - .346 OBP - .539 SLG - 0.885 OPS Manny: .313 AVG - .409 OBP - .598 SLG - 1.007 OPS I'd trade just about anyone to get Manny - even at 33 years old. Not a Sammy fan, but wanted to jump in since I just had this argument with a friend of mine over the weekend. There is no question that Manny is quite a bit better career hitter than Sosa. However, your statement that Manny "is also 10X the hitter Sammy ever was" is completely false. These are Sosa's numbers from 98 - 01: 98 - .308 AVG - .377 OBP - .647 SLG - 1.024 OPS 99 - .288 AVG - .367 OBP - .635 SLG - 1.002 OPS 00 - .320 AVG - .406 OBP - .634 SLG - 1.040 OPS 01 - .328 AVG - .437 OBP - .737 SLG - 1.174 OPS So, clearly for about a 4 year period Sammy was every bit the hitter that Ramirez was and is.