dalgreen

Yes. And I'd leave Santo off the list. That doesn't mean I don't value what he did, it simply means that there are five other Cubs who'd I rather have on my team than Santo. That's it - nothing more nothing less. I'd take Sosa's 1997-2002 over Santo's best six seasons. In my opinon, had the Cubs not been stupid and traded Bill Madlock, I'm not certain that Santo would be getting all the love he does. I honestly think a lot of the love he gets is because he's still with the team and we had some not so good thirdbasemen for many years after him, not counting the cup of coffee Madlock had with the Cubs.

I've been wanting to ask this for some time now, but when did MLB allow over the air broadcasts on Wednesday nights? ESPN used to have exclusive rights and teams could only have games broadcast on cable.

But how many line-ups in MLB have high OBPs up and down the lineup? If it was the norm rather than the exception, I think that could have merit. That doesn't equate to a team settling for a lack of guys who can get on base, one can almost assume that a good team (espec. a NL team) will have 2-3 spots in the order where they might have a low OBP. Of course, what that hitter also does (speed, power, running, decent avg with low BBs) and those that surround him (6 higher OBPs) can dictate how much of a potential liability that player might be and how much what else he does well impact the team. I think there have been quite a few teams with four, five or six hitters with OBP above .350, especially teams who seem to play in October.

Because now Spier is gonna take the fall for the team. Way to go Spier, you idiot. At least he's not setting a bad example for Furcaholic. And you know this because.....?

Can anybody tell me how Hendry's and Baker's name get thrown into a thread on Speier being an idiot and drinking and driving? Better yet, how is it that some of you already have Speier fired? Glad no one was crossing an intersection or driving through it since he ran a freaking stop sign.

What difference does an interim manager make? It's an interim manager.

A lot of these kinds of discussions wouldn't have to take place if the Cubs had high OBP up and down the lineup vs. just one or two guys. I don't know why people only talk about high OBP in the 1-2 spots vs. tallking about OBP for the whole lineup. Having high OBP from only your 1-2 hitters doesn't help if your leading off every inning but the first with your 4-9 hitters.

Great point. It's becoming obvious that for some on here if you love a guy you will never criticize him even if it's deserved; and if you hate a guy you won't give him credit.

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired. Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves. so, we weren't there so we can't assume jones was out of line, but we can assume the fan was drunk and insulting his mother? Even if he was, Jones responding is idiotic and pointless. the way for Hendry/Trib/Chicago to get around the race card thing is do what many here advocate anyway. hire the guy from the Braves. he's hispanis, isn't he? kind of a bunch of crap when Chicago is better about hiring minority managers/coaches than any other major sports city. Cartwright, Guillen, Guillen's predecessor, Baylor, Baker, Smith. There will be no race factor, just as there was none when Baylor was fired. The best thing for the Cubs to do is to hire a good manager, period. At this point, I don't know if Hendry knows what one is.

Just saw another amazing swing by Pujols. He took a pitch low and his ankles, in which he was well out in front and drove it to the centerfield bleachers. Has anyone heard who taught him how to hit? Has anyone ever seen him get cheated at the plate? I hope when it's all said and done, he's revered in St. Louis as much as Stan Musial.

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno. ....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions. When I said that, I wasn't referring to Cedeno but was referencing in general why # of errors doesn't always tell you everything. Like what I said about ARam. Yes, but if ARam is benefitting from Wrigley and Lee and all that, then that would suggest Cedeno's FPct & E totals are actually worse than they appear, not the other way around. I'm not saying that is the case, however. What I *am* trying to say is, many people sold Cedeno on the idea that he was an absolute stud on defense. I think it's been proven rather convincingly he is not. Maybe he is alright----or maybe there is room for improvement. I think you can say that about alot of young guys. But a defensive stud, right out of the box? That is false, in my view. As I stated before, Cedeno has been very disappointing, to me, this year. I think he'll end up being good. But what do I know? I said the same thing about Murton, too. But I do think Cedeno, defensively, will get better.

Yes. As if 1969, 1984, 1989, 2003 were any easier to take than the ball going thru Buckner's legs?? IMO that was the worst, b/c the Red Sox were 1 strike away. At least the Red Sox had won pennants, unlike those years you describe of the Cubs. Plus, how many years has the Cubs season been over by June 15th? Many more than the Red Sox.

It wasn't brought up when Baylor was fired. Like I said before, there is a difference getting mad and arguing at a fan because the fan yells, "You suck" vs. a fan getting personal with the insults. I wasn't there and most of us weren't, but if the fan(s) started yelling about his wife, mom, etc, I think Jacque had every right to yell back. It's amazing how "liquid courage" seems to make fans feel like they're entitled to make asses of themselves.

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno. ....not by as many errors as Cedeno has over his peers. Those aren't just a few bad scoring decisions. When I said that, I wasn't referring to Cedeno but was referencing in general why # of errors doesn't always tell you everything. Like what I said about ARam.

Errors tell you absolutely *nothing* about defensive ability? Sorry TT, but I disagree. Errors tell you something but not everything. ARam is second in fielding pct. either in the NL or MLB and I think he's one of the worst defensive thirdbasemen in the game. Also, remember a couple of bad scoring decisions can screw your fielding pct. up. Having said that, Cedeno has been disappointing in the field, but, unlike Shawon Dunston, as another poster pointed out, I think he will get better and his defensive liabilities of today won't be talked about 5-10 years from now. I'll give Baker this, if he truly hated kids, he could've used some of the stats you used to justify sitting Cedeno.

Indirectly? His comments sounded direct to me. And that was another stupid thing Baker said/did. And that should explain Walker's angst and defensiveness. I don't know what kind of work you do, but put yourself in Walker's position. If my school had a poor performance score and in the newspaper my principal pointed the finger at me directly, I can almost guarantee you, I'm not going to humbly accept it. and yes, someone likely would be thrown under the bus when I'm asked about it. But don't we always complain about this organization's (including players)not holding themselves accountable? In my opinion, Walker was wrong for even bringing up Brenly's name. And, yes, had I been Walker I would've simply said I didn't bobble it and leave it at that. Our department is criticized a lot at my job. Do I "drop a dime" on my team to save me from criticism? Nope. As I've said, I have no problem with Walker denying he bobbled the ball or had trouble getting the ball out of his glove, but there was no reason for him to complain about Brenly's call or for calling out Cedeno. But Walker is not only being called out, he's feeling pushed out the door. In his mind, he's really not "part" of the team anymore so looking out for the team is no longer in his mindset. Do you personally know him? I'm asking seriously because it sounds like you do. And if he's feeling pushed out, then he should quit saying things like, "it's the business". What is your opinion on the lie he told when he said he never spoke to Baker during the offseason then a month later said he did talk to Baker?

I saw the Maddux post game conference. He was being pressured with questions about it and was just trying to be very diplomatic. He further said, "I've been in this game long enough and I don't believe what is on sportscenter." He was talking about trade rumors. Then he went on to try to explain and I'm paraphrasing here that people just need to let it play out and see what really happens. He then said I love Chicago , love the fans and this where I love to play. Edit to add: He also said how great the organization has been to him, but oddly enough they don't print that in the paper. Diplomatic=professional.

Indirectly? His comments sounded direct to me. And that was another stupid thing Baker said/did. And that should explain Walker's angst and defensiveness. I don't know what kind of work you do, but put yourself in Walker's position. If my school had a poor performance score and in the newspaper my principal pointed the finger at me directly, I can almost guarantee you, I'm not going to humbly accept it. and yes, someone likely would be thrown under the bus when I'm asked about it. But don't we always complain about this organization's (including players)not holding themselves accountable? In my opinion, Walker was wrong for even bringing up Brenly's name. And, yes, had I been Walker I would've simply said I didn't bobble it and leave it at that. Our department is criticized a lot at my job. Do I "drop a dime" on my team to save me from criticism? Nope. As I've said, I have no problem with Walker denying he bobbled the ball or had trouble getting the ball out of his glove, but there was no reason for him to complain about Brenly's call or for calling out Cedeno.

Indirectly? His comments sounded direct to me. And that was another stupid thing Baker said/did.

So how would you respond if a reporter publicly questioned your ability to do your job? I don't know if you have had a chance to read the article yet, but I had no problem with his response until he brought up Bob Brenly's name, which had nothing to do with the original question. And, he was right there when he saw what happened to Cedeno, and if he didn't see it he was right there asking Cedeno if he was okay or what happened or whatever when Cedeno stayed on the ground after the play. I know Walker is one of your favorites, but I don't see how anyone can justify his bringing up Brenly's comment. I read the article. It appears that Dusty threw Walker under the bus first. I'm not saying Walker handled it perfectly. I am saying that when you have a manager that acts as Dusty has, that players are going to start thinking of themselves, especially ones that already believe the organization is going to send them packing. Walker likely referred to Brenly because he knew the questioning began because Brenly said he "bobbled it" and Walker wanted to clarify that in his mind he didn't. Should Walker not have been so defensive? Probably, but once again his manager was blaming the loss on that play, and not so indirectly on Walker. When that crap happens, people are going to get defensive. I think the questioning started when Baker referenced that play as being costly. I'm not sure the reporters even knew about Brenly's comments.

I'm not condoning their actions, but trying to place them into context. Have you ever worked for a crappy boss that always passed the buck and blamed everyone but never took any responsibility himself? I have. And after awhile, very good employees become very bad employees. They begin to take advantage where they can and they begin to often take on the personality of their leader. I've seen it happen in two places where I've worked. It doesn't surprise me that this team has taken on a me-first attitude when that is exactly what attitude it's leader has. Baker's statement about if the team struggles with the youth, would that be held against him shows what exactly the manager is thinking. When the players see that, it tells them that their leader believes in looking out for himself first and that they should as well. Furthermore, what Walker is doing is only human. He believes he's going to be traded. Like others have mentioned in this thread, he heard the rumors of his being traded all offseason. He was the starter in 05, yet not once did he receive a public backing by his bosses this offseason. He's hearing the rumors again that he'll be traded. He's a FA who will be looking for a job and has received no indication that his current employer plans on retaining him. Why should he exhibit loyalty to said employer when they haven't done so to him? As a teacher, I usually try to be a team player. In fact I score high in that regard on every evaluation I recieve. I rarely take days off because I know that it is difficult for my school to get quality substitutes and often my co-workers end up having to cover classes on what should be their break. Yet, if I heard rumblings when I reported in August that my principal tried to have me transferred over the summer, and then in February-March, I continue to hear from reliable sources that I'm not going to be re-hired for the next school year, suddenly I may not be as willing to cover someone's class or cover someone's duty, and I may just start taking my sick days at my leisure. Why would I do this? Human nature. I have to disagree, Vance. We're talking about one player today and two players (Alou and Mercker) from 2004. I'd be inclined to agree with you if generally stand up guys like Lee, Pierre or Maddux started to act like this. And it infuriates me that in order for these types of incidents to happen they would have to go to the clubhouse rewind the tape AND turn up the volume. What's the point of turning up the volume to see a replay? But it's not just one player today and two from 2004. Have we forgotten so soon Scott Williamson's comments? Or what about Ramirez throwing the pitching staff under the bus? Or Scott Eyre, who is normally a stand-up guy, saying the media questioning Dusty is part of the problem? Just because Lee, Pierre, and Maddux haven't stooped to this level is no way proof that the attitude hasn't permeated the clubhouse. Some guys are more vocal than others. Walker, Alou, and Mercker were always vocal in good times and bad. It's not surprising that they were the ones who spoke out since they were always outspoken. I'm not saying that they are all model citizens either, but wasn't Dusty's strenght his ability to keep a happy clubhouse and keep veteran players focused on the team concept? Well, it appears he sucks at it. Alou went bad under Dusty. Mercker, who in every interview from anyone who ever played with him says he's the best guy you can have in a clubhouse, had issues under Dusty. Williamson went as far to saying Dusty had "favorites." This kind of bickering and backbiting is a sign that there is a poor leader at the top. If being 20 games under 500 isn't enough to justify firing him, this should be. If Hendry is too dense to see it, then he should be fired as well. You're right about the others, I was just talking about this love some players have for watching replays and then criticizing the announcers. You won't get any argument out of me regarding Baker's lack of leadership. Remember, I was calling for Baker's and Hendry's dismissal as early as last season, for I see them as "two peas in a pod". But I've always held player accountable when this type of stuff happens. Why can't they just do what Steve Carlton and George Hendrick did and just not speak to reporters?

So how would you respond if a reporter publicly questioned your ability to do your job? I don't know if you have had a chance to read the article yet, but I had no problem with his response until he brought up Bob Brenly's name, which had nothing to do with the original question. And, he was right there when he saw what happened to Cedeno, and if he didn't see it he was right there asking Cedeno if he was okay or what happened or whatever when Cedeno stayed on the ground after the play. I know Walker is one of your favorites, but I don't see how anyone can justify his bringing up Brenly's comment.

I'm not condoning their actions, but trying to place them into context. Have you ever worked for a crappy boss that always passed the buck and blamed everyone but never took any responsibility himself? I have. And after awhile, very good employees become very bad employees. They begin to take advantage where they can and they begin to often take on the personality of their leader. I've seen it happen in two places where I've worked. It doesn't surprise me that this team has taken on a me-first attitude when that is exactly what attitude it's leader has. Baker's statement about if the team struggles with the youth, would that be held against him shows what exactly the manager is thinking. When the players see that, it tells them that their leader believes in looking out for himself first and that they should as well. Furthermore, what Walker is doing is only human. He believes he's going to be traded. Like others have mentioned in this thread, he heard the rumors of his being traded all offseason. He was the starter in 05, yet not once did he receive a public backing by his bosses this offseason. He's hearing the rumors again that he'll be traded. He's a FA who will be looking for a job and has received no indication that his current employer plans on retaining him. Why should he exhibit loyalty to said employer when they haven't done so to him? As a teacher, I usually try to be a team player. In fact I score high in that regard on every evaluation I recieve. I rarely take days off because I know that it is difficult for my school to get quality substitutes and often my co-workers end up having to cover classes on what should be their break. Yet, if I heard rumblings when I reported in August that my principal tried to have me transferred over the summer, and then in February-March, I continue to hear from reliable sources that I'm not going to be re-hired for the next school year, suddenly I may not be as willing to cover someone's class or cover someone's duty, and I may just start taking my sick days at my leisure. Why would I do this? Human nature. I have to disagree, Vance. We're talking about one player today and two players (Alou and Mercker) from 2004. I'd be inclined to agree with you if generally stand up guys like Lee, Pierre or Maddux started to act like this. And it infuriates me that in order for these types of incidents to happen they would have to go to the clubhouse rewind the tape AND turn up the volume. What's the point of turning up the volume to see a replay?

That play did not cost us the game, but Walker gets the blame because of the bobble or trouble he had getting the ball out of his glove that disrupted the timing of the play. Cedeno's throw was poor because as he threw it the runner (I forgot who it was) actually made an attempt to grab the bag and when he couldn't he grabbed Cedeno's foot making Cedeno get off a poor throw. These guys are adults who have been playing baseball all their lives. If they have to act like babies I don't fault the manager, I fault the players. Walker threw Cedeno under the bus with his comment that you'd have to ask Cedeno what happened on the throw when Walker was right there as Cedeno was being tripped up. I understand when fans don't want to place any blame on "their" guy, but you can't then blame Baker or anyone else who does the same thing. I still don't know why more wasn't mentioned of Walker's lie when he created a stir by saying he never spoke to Baker during the offseason when a month later he admitted he did. As I said earlier, it was always curious to me that any team could've had him, as Hendry was seemingly dangling him , yet no one wanted him. But we don't know for a fact what Hendry would have taken for Walker. Everyone wants to say that he could have been had for a song, but we don't know that. We only know what was reported in the media. And yes, it seemed as if Walker was actively being shopped, but we really don't know what Hendry's asking price was, just as we don't know definitively that Hendry could have had Dunn for Rich Hill. You're right we don't know what Hendry's asking price was. But it's rare to have several outlets (and I mean Chicago papers and national people) say that a player is being shopped around without any mention of a comment like "...but the asking price is high..." if the asking price wasn't too high. It wasn't as if he was ever given a ringing endorsement even when the rumors were out there. And with the ineptitude that Hendry has shown in valuing defense and speed over OBP and SLP, is Hendry not wanting Walker around really an indictment over Walker's skills? I never mentioned his skills. I mentioned his childish dig at Brenly and throwing Cedeno under the bus.

That play did not cost us the game, but Walker gets the blame because of the bobble or trouble he had getting the ball out of his glove that disrupted the timing of the play. Cedeno's throw was poor because as he threw it the runner (I forgot who it was) actually made an attempt to grab the bag and when he couldn't he grabbed Cedeno's foot making Cedeno get off a poor throw. These guys are adults who have been playing baseball all their lives. If they have to act like babies I don't fault the manager, I fault the players. Walker threw Cedeno under the bus with his comment that you'd have to ask Cedeno what happened on the throw when Walker was right there as Cedeno was being tripped up. I understand when fans don't want to place any blame on "their" guy, but you can't then blame Baker or anyone else who does the same thing. I still don't know why more wasn't mentioned of Walker's lie when he created a stir by saying he never spoke to Baker during the offseason when a month later he admitted he did. As I said earlier, it was always curious to me that any team could've had him, as Hendry was seemingly dangling him , yet no one wanted him. But we don't know for a fact what Hendry would have taken for Walker. Everyone wants to say that he could have been had for a song, but we don't know that. We only know what was reported in the media. And yes, it seemed as if Walker was actively being shopped, but we really don't know what Hendry's asking price was, just as we don't know definitively that Hendry could have had Dunn for Rich Hill. You're right we don't know what Hendry's asking price was. But it's rare to have several outlets (and I mean Chicago papers and national people) say that a player is being shopped around without any mention of a comment like "...but the asking price is high..." if the asking price wasn't too high. It wasn't as if he was ever given a ringing endorsement even when the rumors were out there.