Thrilho

I agree with David, the national media wasn't giving the Cubs nearly the respect they deserved. Before the Cubs picked up Lester, I heard Gammons talking on the radio about how 2017 was going to be the year when the Cubs were ready to turn it around. Everyone I talked to laughed at me when I said they were going to get Lester and be good the very next year. It was definitely not a given among national outlets, from what I recall. And even if it was, national outlets are consistently behind the curve, largely because they don't spend as much time on our guys as we do. Gabriel is one pickup that I really like but the national media isn't going to care about a guy who had 1 TD last year. They won't look back a year and see he scored 6 TDs on 35 catches with a 16.5 ypc the year before. Or Burton. Under the radar because he was a backup but he could be a really good in this offense. Robinson, if he stays healthy is a huge get. Dude caught for 1,400 yards and 14 TDs catching balls from Blake Bortles and he's basically the same age as Calvin Ridley. On the free agent thing, I do see parallels with the Cubs. The Cubs could have gotten Pujols but then he's just a big name in the middle of a big aging pile of suck. Instead, the chose to add nothing to that pile and suck hard enough to grab KB. The Bears sucked hard enough to get Trubisky. How much better could they have really gotten through FA? If they had spent a lot early in Pace's tenure, could they afford to outfit this team in exactly the way their new coach wants or would they be closer to capped out? The team they have now is very young on both sides of the ball. If they'd built in FA sooner would they be a significantly older team? Maybe they could've been better sooner, but I don't care much about half measures. I never cared if the Cubs looked respectable. I want a championship and consistent contention. If they have to suck for years to get it I could care less. Maybe the Bears are at that consistent level of good play, maybe not. But I think that now that Pace has had his 3 years and finally dropped that big wad in FA, and basically has an entire roster of his guys, this is really the point where we should start judging him.

It's no just believing in Mitch, I believe in the team Pace has assembled. I believe in Robinson, Howard, Cohen, Gabriel, Burton, Meredith, and Shaheen. I believe in Nagy's system and the fits of the players they've gotten. THEN you get to Trubisky tying it together. And I'm not going on blind faith here. Go back and look at those clips David posted. You're right that you can't evaluate football through numbers alone, you've got to look at traits, look at situations. I look at the situation Trubisky was in with Fox and the fourth rate receiving corps. Again, watch those clips and imagine competent receivers on the other end. Look at what KC was able to do with Alex Smith at the helm. Look at the jump Wentz and the Philly offense took with Pederson. Look at Trubisky's physical traits relative to Philly used Wentz. I don't think you need a whole lot of imagination to see that the potential of this offense is pretty high.

Seems clear to me, but I understand your perspective. How do you feel about the offseason additions, Nagy included? I like what's been done this off-season. But its way too premature to give Pace any sort of real credit yet. Trubisky has some weapons now. Lets see how he does..... But the bottom line is still the actual bottom line and the record shows nothing so far. How many more years does he get before he needs to make the playoffs? I just don't think a true rebuild is needed in football. But either way, its time to start winning games at this point. Edit- But I will definitely vouch for you, that you were a leading member of the Trubisky bandwagon. Because I went round and round on the other end of it. I'll stick with my concept that if you believe in Trubisky and the weapons and the scheme of the HC he got then you can give him his praise now. Same as you could with Theo when the Cubs were losing a ton of games but had an excellent farm system ready to break it open. You could look at the job Theo did to that point and say "well he's real good at coming in second on free agents." Or you could understand that he knew the team wasn't ready and decided not to spend the extra cash to get a guy like Tanaka because it would waste money and screw with his tanking. Here's the roster that Pace took over: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/chi/2014_roster.htm You and others might not think that a rebuild is necessary in the NFL but I'll say what everyone was saying to Kyle when he said Theo wasn't getting it done. What would you have done differently to turn that team into a consistent contender? Much less a consistent contender with an offense that anyone wanted to watch? Pace has racked up a lot of quality players through these first three drafts. He hasn't hit on many great free agents, but he saved a boatload of cash and has spent a bunch of it this offseason winning bidding wars for good offensive players. And most of them have come here for the QB he got and the coach he got. Robinson was probably the top offensive player on the market and he wouldn't have come here in probably any other year I could remember. It's not like they blew him away with a 5 year contract either. He signed up largely for the quality of the team going forward, it seems to me. Same with Nagy, really. So it took three years to get here, but Angelo had a lot longer than three years. There are a lot of GMs around that have had had longer and haven't put together a team that looks this set up for success. I'm biased, because I think Trubisky is going to be the best QB the Bears have had by a mile and a top 5 guy. So that makes the future look rosier and makes Pace's past moves look rosier. But even if he's not a top 5 QB, I'm real confident this offense is going to be better than anything the Bears have fielded in my lifetime. And the defense is pretty good too, built almost entirely of young players. Can Pace get an amen for solving the safety position? I don't want to get myself into legal jeopardy by taking bets from the 50 or so people who would probably take these, but I'd bet on all these things: - Bears will have a top 10 scoring offense in the NFL next year - Trubisky is a top 10 fantasy QB next year - Bears make the playoffs The first two I'm very confident in, the third one...I'll say pretty confident because it would be tough for the first two to happen and not the last one with this defense. So, just to level set, it's on this basis that I'm giving Pace a good grade. I understand the perspective of anyone who needs to see it first though.

:? Seems clear to me, but I understand your perspective. How do you feel about the offseason additions, Nagy included?

Totally, I just needed a way to start my post. Felt like typing out some Trubisky hyperbole after 10,000 words of defending my logic regarding a future 49ers linebacker.

sometimes, you just see what you like regardless of where you are. I think sulley and I are the only 2 on this board who wanted to draft him regardless of cost. Mitch has work to do, but horsefeathers everyone if you dont think he can't. Come on man! I suppose I don't have enough posts to be part of the Cheers gang but Id think I had enough TL;DR article length posts dedicated to Trubisky fawning leading up to the draft that I get a spot on the bandwagon. Raw was in there too there, maybe the original QB or bust voice. But yeah I'd have given up quite a bit to move up that one spot and was worried that Cleveland would be smarter than standard Cleveland and work some way to get Mitch with one of their picks. But happily they're fools and decided to do the foolish thing of waiting until the second round to get a QB who ended up being bad enough that they traded him a year later. Pace fleeced them and everyone else who had a shot at getting Mitch. Mitch is going to be super good and all Bears fans will be way happy. Pace is making it pretty clear that he's great at GMing, I couldn't have asked for a more promising HC hire, and the the offense is set up to be an exciting consistent top 10 type thing for the first time in my life (first time in every Bears fans life?) I'm sure this all sounds pretty overconfident for a team picking 8, but I feel like the team is finally going to pay off my "cup runneth over" optimism here.

Agreed on both those Trubisky takes too. Completion percentage and TD-INT% and physical traits > experience. And yeah, Trubisky's feet were junk in most of those throws and yet nearly all were amazing. Calling top 10 fantasy QB for next year and long term top 5 guy. Can't wait to watch him grow in this offense.

I'll skip the rest, because you're selling me on the fact that athletic measures are important and have been proven so. For whatever the rest of the discussion, can we just be clear that he didn't have a "non-elite workout," he skipped the drills? I get the value of analytics. But which argument are you making? 1. He didn't do the drills so we can assume he would have performed poorly in them 2. You've watched him play and you think he's not an elite athlete 3. Something else If it's the first one, I don't get how you can make that assumption. But if that's it, I get what you're doing and I just disagree. If it's number 2, there are a bunch of links that disagree. We don't have the analytics to validate his freakiness but evaluators are comping him to dudes like Urlacher who if I recall was a solid athlete. I haven't really seen how your prospect picking stands up over time, so I'm taking their analysis over yours. Regarding the idea that he's a massive gamble because someone said he's an edge prospect but he doesn't have sacks etc. He's a 19 year old player who is a gifted athlete and was used in the way that helped his team the most. Same as Leonard Floyd covering receivers in college and not getting a whole lot of sacks because of it. Edmunds was primarily an inside linebacker playing in space. But he was a big guy with long arms who could take on blockers. He had 10 sacks and 30.5 TFLs the last two years playing primarily as an inside linebacker. Vander Esch for instance, had 5 sacks and 12 TFLs. And all Vander Esch's were on his highlight reel and they mostly on unblocked free shots at the QB. Edmunds can play at the line, take on o-linemen. The fact that he can consistently do that while spending a lot of time covering is why he's considered such a good athlete. I think most places consider Edmunds an ILB long term, but this team's needs are at rusher right now so I think he could fit there in the short term and long term has more upside than Davenport or Smith or Vander Esch [again just IMO]. So I'd be cool with all those other guys but hoping that Fangio likes Edmunds enough to take him because he's got a lot of upside.

Thank you for that David. Trubisky is going to be so good.

Got it. The assertions that Edmunds is not a freak athlete and OLB is not a premium position are objective fact and your link that is missing results for Edmunds in 4 out of 6 categories proves something but you refuse to explain how. Glad this is cleared up.

And I suppose if they get a corner or Fitzpatrick I should probably still be happy because they're getting a pretty good player and that would mean the Bears have some kind of other plan for edge and guard. Right now I just see those two as the only glaring holes on the roster, and I know edge is a pretty popular one so it'll be hard to fill late in the draft. Edit: I'll just add here cause I've posted so much on this page. I saw your guy Vander Esch at the top of that table with the best pSPARQ athleticism score and he does look interesting. Basically same size as Edmunds, 4.65 40, 39.5 inch vert, solid enough at the other athleticism stuff to rate at the top of the list, in the pics he doesn't appear to be a Shea McClellin phantom 250. Then, apparently Pete Prisco is mocking him to the Bears here with a Kuechly comp. https://247sports.com/nfl/chicago-bears/Bolt/CBS-Sports-pegs-Leighton-Vander-Esch-to-Bears-in-mock-draft-117046788 I'd rather get a guy who can rush the passer but if they get a potential Kuechly I'd be cool with that.

What part of this link are you pointing me to? I see the part where he's the tallest guy in the table, nearly the heaviest, he has the longest arms and the third fastest 40 time. I see the part where he's got a middling benchpress count of 19 and a not so good broad jump. Am I missing it or did he just not do a whole bunch of drills, including the 3 cone? It would certainly not be uncommon for a guy who is known as a good athlete to skip stuff like the cone drill simply because he doesn't want his value boiled down in this very way. Let me know if it's in there and I'm missing it or if you can find some other link that has his agility measurables. I did find this blurb about top day three combine performers: https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Bolt/NFL-Combine-Top-Performers-Day-Three-115839456 That last bit, the seamless transitions and coverage ability is where Kollmann gives him the most praise. He does play up the sideline to sideline speed, but he talks Edmunds up as a big linebacker who plays like a safety. He shows him covering slot receivers or running step for step down the sideline with running backs, and said that VT used him that way a lot. Being good at coverage seems like it would take a good bit of agility and quickness. Ultimately, I don't know a lot about what constitutes freak athleticism. I could watch Edmunds tape and Bostic's tape and I can't really tell a difference. I'm going more on the opinions of guys I assume to be smarter than me. Like Brett Kollmann, guy who does this tape stuff for a living and called Eddie Jackson last year. Or Voch Lombardi, dude who told me Trubisky is good. Or NFL.com, aka pretty ok source for football information. Or basically any mock draft. They're all saying he's got really good upside and is very athletic. From there, I want a guy who can rush the passer. Knowing that the Bears have a 3-4 genius as their DC, I'd like to take the biggest, fastest, freakiest dude possible and let the genius guy figure out the rest. He may be raw so it could take a while and he could be not that good. I was happy with the Floyd pick and he hasn't been great, but I still think we're going to be very happy with that pick. I think it would be great to get another really fast guy on the other side. But if they take Davenport or Smith or some other guy I'll be happy because it's a LB and smarter people than me picked him.

One nice thing about reddit's format is that this conversation could be collapsed and down voted a place where nobody would see it. But if you're going to lecture me on the objective fact, I'd like you to point me to the source for your definition of a freak athlete. You say he's objectively not a freak athlete, but the title of that video I posted is "Tremaine Edmunds is a freak of nature...with one big flaw." So is this Brett Kollmann guy misstating an objective fact or is it possible that your definition of freak athlete just your definition of a freak athlete? He didn't perform up to your standards at the combine and you don't like him as a prospect. That's cool. But he's probaby going to go in the top 10-12 picks and if he doesn't have much in the way of experience or awareness it's probably going to have a lot to do with the fact that an NFL decision maker disagreed with you on the level of his athleticism.

There seems to be be some confusion here over whar subjective actually means. The three cone drill is objective, there’s no opinion that goes into formulating the number. Comparing him to Urlacher is subjective, a matter of opinion. Cool, I've only got so much time to dedicate to dancing with you over semantics before I morph into a huge eye roll emoji, but yes the three cone drill is an objective activity. The quality of the results of the cone drill and the general definition of testing like an athletic freak are subjective. In the first part of this statement, I'm saying that it is subjective that he did or didn't test like a freak. In the second, I'm saying I don't care whether he did or didn't; his frame, speed, and production are good enough for me to think of him as pretty athletic and good. Maybe my first statement is wrong and he did test outside of some objective measure of a freak, but I stand by my second statement that it doesn't matter and that this conversation is boring.

The explosition (vert, broad jump) and agility (the almight 3 cone) drills are much more telling than the 40 yard dash. I don't think there's anything subjective about that. The subjective piece is taking the cone drill over game film. Edit: Here's his NFL.com profile: https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tremaine-edmunds?id=32462018-0002-5600-62d0-412c60099aca "Edmunds combines elite size, speed and explosiveness into a productive, versatile linebacker package that will have evaluators salivating." Comp: Urlacher I'm not personally saying he's got Urlacher athletic ability, but NFL.com makes the comp and the video I linked seems to think he's got some generational athleticism. So maybe he sucks in the NFL, but I'm not the only one claiming he's got some good athleticism.

CBs carry either the third or fourth highest franchise and transition tag prices, teams spend more on the position than any other by QB, and top CBs are among the highest paid players in the game this decade. Throw in that neither of the two starting CBs have been the picture of health and consistency as a pros (Fuller getting the tag anyway hints at the position's value), nickel and dime packages make up like 60% of defensive snaps this decade....While they haven't gone so high, they have been both the most drafted position overall and in the first round (10 combined, 5 apiece) the past two drafts, which is all I checked, and there's going to be another run this year in the first. Another hot take - Edmunds is one of the most overrated players in the draft. First, I don't think teenagers belong in the NFL. That DT the Texans took at 10 however many years ago got his ass handed to him. Edmunds also just didn't test like a freak athlete. Yeah, I had a feeling there would be a case to make for CBs using contracts but didn't feel like doing the research. The feeling on CBs is just my own, I just don't like spending top picks there. As for Edmunds, time will tell. The video from Kollmann convinced me, but he's a polarizing. The comparison to Okoye is one I keep seeing on reddit, but I don't get the comp to a DT from a bunch of years ago just due to age. Also, on the not testing like a freak thing, I guess that's subjective. To me, a 6'4 250 lb LB who runs a 4.54 40 and can play well in coverage while getting 5.5 sacks as a 19 year old sounds good. But again, 19 year olds with awareness issues can be polarizing. I like the upside.

Oh and for anyone who wants to know more about Nelson or Edmunds, take a look at these two videos. This Brett Kollmann is the same guy who said last year before the draft that Eddie Jackson should be like the 15th overall pick.

For me, CB isn't one of those premium positions. In the past 5 drafts there has only been one selected in the top 5 and four selected in the top 10. The Bears only allowed one 100 yard receiver this year with this current secondary and not much pass rush. Sure, they've now got Fuller and Amukamara making good money, but coming into this year most people thought of CB as a pretty big deficiency. So I basically think you can get by with decent corners with good scheming. I'm actually really happy they re-signed their CB duo so they don't have to take a corner in the first. I think it's a lock they take Nelson if he's there (and for good reason), but if he's not I'd be all for Edmunds. He is the confirmed freak type you're talking about, and I think they could put him at edge for this year to take advantage of his athletic ability while mitigating his awareness/inexperience issues. Then down the road they could move him to his natural inside LB spot, as they fill the edge role. Basically, I just want them to get the guard situation taken care off and load up as much as possible on edge rushers.

This seems like as good a place as any to accept my loss on that bet with Tim. If the season had ended after the Cincy game the Bears would've been 5th in both yards and YPA but they limped to the finish line hard and ended up 16th in rushing yards and 11th in YPA. Not good. So Tim, PM me your preferred Venmo/PayPal/Quickpay thing or else I can donate the $20 to the site. Also, I think I owe somebody one bajillion internet dollars for the Bears not being 7-9 or better. The DeFillipo thing is the best Bears news I've heard in a while though. Please get someone who can run a cool offense like Philly's. The Panther's DC sounds equally like a sad cruel joke and the exact thing Bears ownership would do so I'll be skipping out on the betting for that one.

You don’t not sign Harper because “you maybe can’t re-sign Bryant” 3-4 years later. Spoiler alert, we’ll be able to sign Harper and keep Bryant if we want. If he leaves it won’t be because we can’t afford him. The first part, yeah, I'm pretty sure I agree with. The second part I don't find realistic. The Cards were a contender for lots of years because they had Pujols or McGwire. Having one MVP type in the middle of your order can put you in contention without a ton around him. With a KB, Harper, Contreras middle of the order you've got a lot of flexibility with the rest of the team. They haven't needed to do it at the skill positions, but they could grab Neil Walker/Jon Jay/La Stella types at a few positions and still be real good. They've been real good at getting value pitching and I don't know why anyone would expect that to stop. At some point they may need to have two $25M pitchers on the roster, but they've been making the playoffs and won a WS without it so far. If the choice ever comes down to scrimping on pitching to have another young MVP hitter in the lineup I think you take the elite hitters and trade some other assets for pitching. Then, correct me if I'm wrong, but sending money to another team doesn't affect the salary cap. So if the worry is the cap, they can always launch Heyward and pay a bunch to do it. And with the new revenue streams I think that's the type of thing the Ricketts wouldn't bat an eye at. Like CubinNY said, the Cubs are going to own a city block, a hotel, have a new TV deal, and all kinds of revenue streams. And they've already destroyed the concept of "people won't buy Cubs stuff anymore when they're no longer the loveable losers." If they have to eat some Heyward money to Harper into the long term plan I'm pretty sure that the increased chances of being a contender/retaining KB would make financial sense even forgetting about wanting the good baseball team. They've got tons young guys available to trade for other, cheaper young guys when the time comes. Whether that's for pitching or hitting. But it's a little like Monopoly. When you land on Boardwalk, you buy it and worry about the rest later.

PFF is not proceeding with much caution with their evaluation of Amos. I didn't realize they rated him around an 80 each of the last 2 years, so I guess it makes some sense but #1 on this list is pretty good. Coupled up with Jackson and maybe Fuller this secondary could be in good shape for a while.

I was thinking this was a possibility for the first time today. All those first and second down runs leading to three and outs really hosed the Bears in this game. At one point in the fourth quarter, I think the possession after the Miller overturn, it was 14-6 with the Bears backed up at their own 10 yard like or something. They ran it twice, then threw on 3rd and 12 or something and went three and out. They punted, the Saints got it at midfield and marched the 20 or so yards necessary to get 3 points. When they got the ball there it seemed clear that if they went three and out the Saints were going to get the ball close in enough in for a layup score. At that point, shouldn't a conservative coach want to play field position and do anything possible to avoid a three and out punt? Trubisky didn't play incredible once they loosened the reins, but it should've been clear that they weren't going to win the game running on virtually every single first down. I think they could have won if they had mixed up the plays better. It would be great if this was the game that prompts Pace to fire Fox, let Fangio take over and use the bye week to figure things out.

Wow, this color guy has been good all day. He just pointed out Ginn's clear interference, which was tough to see in real time. Or like "here's a false start on the center" or yeah he caught that TD or at least you can't tell. Just right on everything. Good to see. Solid broadcast team in general today.

Play action first play.

Bullard! And Christian Jones in the middle of it as usual!