The Other 15

Why not debate .03 differences in Win Shares? There hasn't been much to get excited about this offseason. :D My ultimate problem with the move is that I tie it closely to the DeRo trade that I thought (and still think) was so bad. Miles' spot on the bench used to be DeRo's (and Fontenot) and that downgrade bugs me. It's not a killer though, so hopefully something good will come of it. Instead of saying Miles' spot on the bench used to be DeRosa's, try saying that Miles' spot on the bench used to be Cedeno's. DeRosa was a starter, not a sub. Fontenot took DeRosa's job and the cash saved helped pay for Bradley. Finally, I still think the DeRosa trade will end up landing us Peavy. Fontenot is the starter, but any injuries to Bradley and Aramis (and perhaps even Soriano) would have been filled with DeRosa. Now they'll be filled with Miles on the infield and Gathright/Hoff in the outfield. I'm ok with Hoff filling some of that OF time, but I'm not with Miles filling the IF time. Fontenot was going to get a bunch of ABs with or without DeRo. And I really don't think the Peavy deal is happening, but I'll have a different outlook on the offseason if it does. Again, though, it appears very unlikely. hey dew, How many teams have guys sitting on the bench making $5.5 mil just incase of injury? I'm not sure there are many teams that can afford that. The Cubs might be one, but apparently, because of the moves made, they don't appear to be one either. You're right, Fontenot is the starter. He was the only other option to include another LH bat in the lineup. It's more because of DeRos $5.5 salary that he became the odd man out. I'm sure they'd love to have DeRo and another near all-star on the bench but I'm not sure if it was practical. And the merry go round keeps spinning. :D If it was their obsession to "get more left handed" that forced DeRo out of town, then the obsession with getting more left handed was bad. You don't take the chance that you will have an inferior player starting (which is possible with Fontenot) and a vastly inferior player on the bench just so you can get another left bat in the lineup. I'm all for lineup balance when feasible, but not adding less productive players for the sake of getting more lefty. And even if Fontenot produces as well as DeRosa, Miles' addition to the bench made this team worse than the duo of DeRosa/Fontenot. The only options should not have been to either trade DeRosa or put him on the bench. If it was their obsession to "get more left handed" that forced DeRo out of town, then the obsession with getting more left handed was bad Yeah, I believe that is at the crux for this discussion. Was it so important to get a LH bat for the middle of the order like they seemed hell bent on doing, and adding another LH bat in the lineup at the expense of DeRo. For that to be answered, we'll have to wait and see. I'm all for lineup balance when feasible, but not adding less productive players for the sake of getting more lefty. I'm not positive that Fontenot is automatically categorized as "less productive" than DeRo. Less experienced, less of a certainty, sure. DeRo was not going to sit on the bench if they decided to give Font a chance so we can forget debating about why they didn't keep him incase of injury. DeRo had a career year. Can he repeat it? Sure. But odds are not in his favor. Fontenot had what appears to have been an exceptional season. But his minor league numbers suggest he only excelled in SLG last season. Otherwise he's been the .290/.370/.440 guy for his career. That's not to shabby for a 2B considering that's better than DeRo prior to last season. I'm not accusing you of being one, but isn't it ironic that whenever Cubs management does not give a young player a shot over a more proven vet, we get all over them. Now, in the case of Font over DeRo people are so amped up to keep the 34 year old who seems to have peaked. Round and round we go.

We heard 140 million over and over again, and if it wasn't 140 million it was speculation that it was higher than that. Again, not to be rude, but what you and I heard is not more accurate than what Hendry knows. They wanted another LH bat and DeRo became the odd man out. Remember that they started last year with a $118 payroll. They added another $3.5 or so with Hardens trade and Wood added another $3.5 in bonuses on his contract. They finished at roughly $125. I'm not positive, but like you said, $140 seems to be the hard line. They are already there, no. At some point another $3.3 mil (difference between Miles/DeRo) has to matter. Two important factors: Their payroll is set up to increase yearly for '09 and '10. And they had to make expensive FA moves (Demp and Bradley). Somebody was going to fall victim to those factors. Those somebody's are DeRo, Marquis and Wood.

Why not debate .03 differences in Win Shares? There hasn't been much to get excited about this offseason. :D My ultimate problem with the move is that I tie it closely to the DeRo trade that I thought (and still think) was so bad. Miles' spot on the bench used to be DeRo's (and Fontenot) and that downgrade bugs me. It's not a killer though, so hopefully something good will come of it. Instead of saying Miles' spot on the bench used to be DeRosa's, try saying that Miles' spot on the bench used to be Cedeno's. DeRosa was a starter, not a sub. Fontenot took DeRosa's job and the cash saved helped pay for Bradley. Finally, I still think the DeRosa trade will end up landing us Peavy. Fontenot is the starter, but any injuries to Bradley and Aramis (and perhaps even Soriano) would have been filled with DeRosa. Now they'll be filled with Miles on the infield and Gathright/Hoff in the outfield. I'm ok with Hoff filling some of that OF time, but I'm not with Miles filling the IF time. Fontenot was going to get a bunch of ABs with or without DeRo. And I really don't think the Peavy deal is happening, but I'll have a different outlook on the offseason if it does. Again, though, it appears very unlikely. hey dew, How many teams have guys sitting on the bench making $5.5 mil just incase of injury? I'm not sure there are many teams that can afford that. The Cubs might be one, but apparently, because of the moves made, they don't appear to be one either. You're right, Fontenot is the starter. He was the only other option to include another LH bat in the lineup. It's more because of DeRos $5.5 salary that he became the odd man out. I'm sure they'd love to have DeRo and another near all-star on the bench but I'm not sure if it was practical.

What I'm saying is they could've skipped the Miles/DeRosa difference and still been at an acceptable payroll. I don't know what their acceptable payroll level is so, without being rude, I'm assuming neither do you. What we both do know, because Hendry said so, is that their priorities this off season were resigning Dempster and getting a LH bat for the middle of the order. By all accounts, acting on said priorities, Hendrys statements, and evidence of payroll saving moves, we can assume he knows where he has to be not only for the start of the season but flexability-wise for moves that might develop during the season out of need or players becoming available. I like DeRosa as much as anyone here. I argued in his favor here (under a different username) with people who were all over Hendry for signing him to that "ridiculous" contract. I have not forgotten how unpopular that signing was. But the reality is that (for better of worse) they were intent on getting more Left Handed offensively and 2B was the only place that can accommodate that with Fots emergence. DeRo became expendable because he was not going to be paid $5.5 to sit on the bench and be a super-utility guy, waiting on his chance to develop with an injury, no matter how much we wanted him to.

The difference between DeRosa and Miles' salary is about the difference between our payroll and the 140 million mark that was widely reported as the budgeted payroll amount. You know it's not as simple as the $3.3 difference between Miles and DeRosa. They had to make a series of moves and non-moves to clear up payroll flexability. From saving $5.5 in the Marquis trade, $3.3 in Miles/DeRosa difference and saving about $6-8 in not offering Woddy arb (he'd have got $10+) and paying Gregg $4.2 they saved about $15 mil. Bradley ($9) and Dempster ($6.5 additional diff from '08) coincidentally came to about $15.5 mil (if Cots.com is right).

Why not debate .03 differences in Win Shares? There hasn't been much to get excited about this offseason. :D My ultimate problem with the move is that I tie it closely to the DeRo trade that I thought (and still think) was so bad. Miles' spot on the bench used to be DeRo's (and Fontenot) and that downgrade bugs me. It's not a killer though, so hopefully something good will come of it. It's unfairly tied to the DeRo trade by many. It's not at all the preference to have Miles over DeRo, just the preference to resign Demp and get Bradley. Hendry has said as much.

Just throwing it out there: Mark Grudzielanek has posted a .760 OPS in his career against lefties. That's with a .348 OBP (.297 BA). Ramon Martinez has posted a .740 OPS in his career against lefties. That's with a .345 OBP (.275 BA). Both are currently still free agents. Chris Burke has posted a .748 OPS in his career against lefties. That's with a .347 OBP (.274 BA). Mark Loretta has posted an .806 OPS in his career against lefties. That's with a .393 OBP (.307 BA). Burke signed a minor league deal with the Padres and Loretta is playing this year with the Dodgers for 1 yr/ $1.25 million. They all get on base at close to the same rate as Miles (.284 BA and .352 OBP) against lefties (Loretta far better) and all were cheaper than Miles. Martinez and Loretta has played extremely minimal outfield, but plays 3B, SS and 2B. Grudz plays 2B. Burke has played every position Miles has. It would be revisionist if I had thought the Miles signing was well-timed from the start, but I didn't. I didn't think he should be signed at all, but if so, I didn't understand why we did it so quickly. And I'm not trying to act "pseudo-intellectual," I'm trying to understand what Hendry sees in Aaron Miles. And it probably is time to wrap this up. Don't want to piss off the rest of the board any more than we have, eh? :wink: Jus tot be clear. I'm not calling you a pseudo intellectual, just calling out the general theme of every message board thread. We've seen differences of .03 in win shares debated etc. You won't get what Hendry sees from anyone here so I suggest watching and observing with an open mind. From your posts today and in the past, you seem to do that anyways. In closing, yes, there were other ways to go. Debatably better/cheaper/or not, but he chose this way. I suppose I would be more adamantly against this signing if I saw it as the worst move like everyone else seems to see it or if I saw it as an obstacle for real difference makers. I just don't.

You don't wait specifically for them, but you also don't rush just to sign Aaron Miles. The market was shaping up to be slow at the time - meaning it was a perfect time to sit back and wait on potential bargains (Grudz for instance) rather than jumping at a very mediocre player at a spot that is easily filled. As for Hudson and Cabrera, I don't think you wait specifically for them, but the fact that they were still here this much later is a reason for not rushing to sign a very mediocre player. Bargains will appear in slow markets. Hendry, for as many good bargains as he's found in the past, didn't plan well for this one. And feasible isn't the same as good. And I still don't understand the second year when comparable players signed for one. Grudz will likely retire anyways if he doesn't get something close to Miles' 2009 money and since he's just a much older, more limited version of Miles, I don't agree with you on why he'd be better. But it's not important that we agree. The fact remains that there were not (and still are not) the kind of players available who can be asked to play 2B, SS, 3B and some OF at times than Miles. Henedy may have overpaid, but he got the guy he targeted and paid what was affordable to him at the time. I'm not interested on continuing this merry-go-round about how he should have waited. It's conveniently revisionist. As message board debaters we can afford to be as such. GM's have much more at stake than some pseudo intellectual message board debates about salary. They pay what they set their budgets to be. Mile obviously fits and now, much like DeRosa, it will be time to judge it on performance.

So then you think that Miles has respectable numbers too, right?

Good question. Probaby the same thing he saw in DeRosa (another unpopular move economically at the time). I think he was looking for a specific role and identified Miles early. He moved within his budget and left less question marks for himself before he got to the heavy lifting of this offseason (Bradley). After I looked into the DeRosa signing, I liked it - I don't see anything in Miles that I saw in DeRosa to make me think Miles can be all that productive. And you're probably right that he identified a role and filled it - but that's the problem I have with the move, he appeared to lock into one mediocre target and jumped without considering the slow-as-molasses movement of the market at the time and the similar/superior players available and not getting much interest. So Miles is overpaid by a few hundred thousand. Not the end of the world. As a utility player, he's not as bad as people make him out to be. If we agree that they were never in the market for Hudson at 2B fulltime or Cabrera at SS fulltime, and that those two wouldn't settle for that role, who are the utility guys that Hendry missed on that were superior? Everyone has flaws from age, defense, performance, flexability, health and just about anything else. Counsell, Vizquel, Aurelia, Nomar, Vidro, Duhram, Grudz? I'm not saying signing Miles was the only option, just that it was not the most irresponsible one like some make it out to be. It wasn't horribly irresponsible, but it was still poor. For a cash strapped team (which we are this year), 1-1.5 million can be a fairly big deal. The extra year was terrible as well. With all the outfielders we have, I would have greatly preferred a Mark Grudzielanek, Orlando Hudson or Orlando Cabrera over Miles. Plus, Miles plays terrible outfield defense. How much more versatile is he than they are? He can play third, but his offense replacing Aramis for any length of time horrifies me. We're nowhere close to the same parameters if you still believe that Hudson and Cabrera were ever options. Just because both players misunderstood the market and got left behind doesn't mean that Hendry should have waited on them. He had his SS and 2B (still believes he does) and his priorities were trying to make room in the payroll to resign Demp and add a LH presence for the middle of the order. Since DeRo was the odd man out, picking up Miles at half the money was feasible.

Good question. Probaby the same thing he saw in DeRosa (another unpopular move economically at the time). I think he was looking for a specific role and identified Miles early. He moved within his budget and left less question marks for himself before he got to the heavy lifting of this offseason (Bradley). After I looked into the DeRosa signing, I liked it - I don't see anything in Miles that I saw in DeRosa to make me think Miles can be all that productive. And you're probably right that he identified a role and filled it - but that's the problem I have with the move, he appeared to lock into one mediocre target and jumped without considering the slow-as-molasses movement of the market at the time and the similar/superior players available and not getting much interest. So Miles is overpaid by a few hundred thousand. Not the end of the world. As a utility player, he's not as bad as people make him out to be. If we agree that they were never in the market for Hudson at 2B fulltime or Cabrera at SS fulltime, and that those two wouldn't settle for that role, who are the utility guys that Hendry missed on that were superior? Everyone has flaws from age, defense, performance, flexability, health and just about anything else. Counsell, Vizquel, Aurelia, Nomar, Vidro, Duhram, Grudz? I'm not saying signing Miles was the only option, just that it was not the most irresponsible one like some make it out to be.

It means that when he makes a play, it stays played a long time.

I don't completely disagree, but you're not taking into account that they were not looking to sign someone to play 2B. I think they feel it's Fonts job to lose and went with Miles who would be a fallback option if all fails and a utility guy if all goes well. You don't sign Cabrera or Hudson to that role no matter how patient you are because they are not looking for that role. Now, if you want to argue Hendry could have gotten same for less money with another player who fits what Miles will do, fine. But Hudson and Cabrera are unrelated to the Miles signing. I won't accuse you of using convenience of hindsight to make your point, but please don't tell me you expected both Hudson and Cabrera to have this much difficulty finding contracts. Good question. Probaby the same thing he saw in DeRosa (another unpopular move economically at the time). I think he was looking for a specific role and identified Miles early. He moved within his budget and left less question marks for himself before he got to the heavy lifting of this offseason (Bradley).

fixed re-fixed I know a lot of this is probably tongue in cheek, but the irrational Aaron Miles hatred that has been building around here lately is silly. Yes, he is just a reserve type middle infielder without a lot of power. But he shouldn't be in baseball? They guy hit .317 last year with a .355 OBP in 379 AB's. If a guy that can do that doesn't even belong in baseball there should be a lot of 22 man rosters. He sure belongs to be in a baseball at least as much or more than Ronny Cedeno who was the Cubs' utility infielder last season and I assume will be on the Mariners roster this year. I'm going to go out on a limb and say all of us are mad that DeRosa was traded. We don't want Miles at 2nd, we want DeRosa. You wont get Miles at 2B and you wont miss DeRosa by June if Lou is serious about playing Fontenot everyday.

Come on. It's OK, you don't have to like the Miles signing. You also don't have to reach for assumptions to display your distaste of it. How is it an automatic that "it would have been worth it?" The Dodgers invested alot of money in that middle infield and they have more questions than certainties with them for the money paid. Back injuries tend not to help players and a little guy with marginal power doesn't help himself with a wrist injury (at least in the first year after injury). Sure, there's a chance that both have big years, but there are enough questions about them to at least not fawn over their signings as if it was something masterful. $8 mil and a first round pick for one year of Hudson is not great.

yeah and that turned out so dismally. i for one hated the 1.77 ERA he gave us last year. ERA isn't a good way to judge a pitcher. I'm pretty sure that logic applies more to 4.00+ eras. Hard to find many periph flaws in a 1.77 era.

I'm hoping Gathright somehow doesn't make it, as he and Johnson are completely redundant defensively. It's not worth carrying a guy just as a pinch runner when you have a 12 man pitching staff. Also, there is no one to back up Aramis on that bench. I wonder if that's why they have Jake Fox working out at 3b. I'm guessing Gathright doesn't make the team either. He brings nothing to the table that Johnson doesn't bring. Also, I'm really hoping Hill beats out Bako for the backup catcher position. gathright brings speed. he's a lefty too, isn't he? edit: also, car jumping abilities. Are we working on a track team? Who cares if he has speed. that's a pretty silly thing to say. speed has value. how much value is certainly debatable. but to dismiss it entirely is dumb. Gathright has to get on base for his speed to have value. His career average OBP is .327. Not good at all. So I'm hardly dismissing speed. I'm just saying he has no right on the team. not good enough to be an everyday player, no. his obp is a reason he doesn't play everyday. but for a bench player, is a .327 obp really that bad? i'm not trying to argue one way or the other, but it doesn't seem too bad. again, for a bench player. i don't know what league average is for players coming off the bench, or if that's even available for that matter. In a completely unscientific survey of last years NL playoff teams, the average bench player with 70+ ab's had about a .315 OBP. The playoff teams had anywhere between 5 and 7 players who were primarily considered backups. They posted the following OBP's: Cubs - Hoff 400, Pie 312, Cedeno 328, Blanco 325, Font 395, Johnson 358 = .353 OBP bench OBP Dodgers - Meza 282 Sweeney 250, young 313, Nomar 325, Andrew 250, Dewitt 344, Berroa 304, = .295 OBP Phils - Taguchi 283, Bruntlett 297, Coste 325, Dobbs 333, Jenkins 301 = ..308 OBP Brewers -Rivera (62 ab's) 377, Dillon 337, Durham 369, Branyon 342, Counsell 355 = .353 OBP. Gathrights .327 OBP with variables like speed and defense make him a useful player if indeed he has figured out how to steal bases at a good clip.

. :-k It's mighty big of the players union to allow the CBA to be breached when it benefits their own, isn't it?

Why would you go L L R R R R L R P with Bradly in your lineup? Shouldn't he break up that succession of RH's in the middle of the order? I assume that was the primary reason for all of Hendrys tap dancing with the payroll this offseason.

or Cruz could've just accepted arbitration. I don't feel sorry. he took the gamble and lost. Using logic to come to a sound conclusion, while failing to find a way to tie this subject in with Aaron Miles, is grounds for dismissal around here pal! The only reason I feel sorry for Cruz is that God gave him the face of a 65 year old man at age 21. His disposition of being a middle reliever in a tight market doesn't keep me up at night.

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players_l/20080402/6154.jpg?x=65&y=85&xc=1&yc=1&wc=164&hc=215&q=100&sig=LCwAE1TFB2scz.nmPVAI3w-- You think Soriano is worth 18 million a year? I don't think you'll find many people here who believe Soriano is worth $18 million a year, especially as he gets older. IMHO, nobody is worth $18 million. obviously, nobody should be. but if someone will pay it its "worth" it. that's the point. So Soriano is worth $18 million, Miles is worth $5 million over 2 years, and Marquis is worth $10 million. Yes. Welcome to baseball salaries since you've obviously been locked in a cave for a while. Torri Hunter is worth $17.5 mil, Figgins is worth $6, Sarge JR. is worth $33 over the next 3 years, Kennedy is worth $4, Suppan is worth $10 mil, Tejada is worth $13, Lohse is worth $40 over the next 4 years, Byrnes is worth $11, Pierre is worth $10, we can go on and on, and on, and on. There's a difference between market value and worth. That's obvious Crusader, but irrelevant in the real word where market value rules. What did you pay for a hot dog when you watched the Caravan kill Rice last fall? Market value, right?

Oh, good. Just that to worry about? I thought there would be a long list.

Some back op catchers http://www.beckett.com/images/pgitems/382530101.jpg http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/2786/11706205/77Mitterwald.jpg Now that's a stashe! http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/tim_blackwell_autograph.jpg Not allowed to be photographed in Cubs gear http://static.baseballtoaster.com/blogs/u/cardboardgods/2008/404/0003/Larry_Cox_77_1080.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L5aU9SvCApI/R9Sl6Xa9ekI/AAAAAAAAFbU/icpAOZ9ZD78/s320/the792-542.JPG http://www.beckett.com/images/pgitems/770560101.jpg http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/048/519/06F.jpg Sandy is concentrating a little too much on what he's about to do http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/980518/images/WOOD6.JPG A young Oscar Gamble in 1969 http://www.baseballtoddsdugout.com/gamblecubs.jpg Prince Paul http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/3785/30350897/1971_726.jpg

http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/debbie-downer-lottery.jpg you're unclear on the concept of the thread I'm positive of that memory.

Hey, it's nice to see Arams most recent playoff contribution (10 games ago).