The Other 15

Did you see him pitch? One grounder hit hard, the rest was crap contact that had hitters fooled. Stayed ahead in the count and did the job if his defense didn't hand over a chap run.

Yes, as long as TLR is there, I will be worried about them. But here we are talking about issues from last year that didn't get resolved. That bullpen is wretched again. Wretched again? I'd like to know what your idea of good is if you considered the Cubs bullpen wretched. Me thinks you don't know what you're talking about.

well then he's lying because steve phillips is (a) no longer a GM and (b) was never a GM of an american league team. (a)I know that (b) you paid attention to the window dressing and not the main point that I think Starks is full of crap with his "gm" droppings.

I get the nagging suspicion that Jasons Starks always available "AL GM", or "Veteran GM," that he quotes often in his articles is nothing more than Steve Phillips.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him. You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal? this discussion is getting away from the original point -- that marmol the setup man will get paid less than marmol the closer, and i was thinking out loud (or on keyboard, i should say) how badly that will affect him. if you want to go through BR pages and see if i'm wrong in my notion that marmol isn't the best setup man ever, go for it. i don't really care to though. In supporting your argument, would you care to offer an example or two? Who has been better than Marmol as a set-up man, and/or first two years as a set-up man. Some have offered examples (i.e. Rivera). Do you want to even, like, you know, comment on them? Brad Lidge 2003 might be an example. He didn't get closer money until he actually spent time as a closer. And then Marmol becomes "closer"? I hate to think this plays a role, but it probably does. Though, wouldn't Gregg as set-up man be a bit cheaper and easier to bring back? I suppose the stats can be used to make an argument (six years versus two) but I think Marmol is the better pitcher. Is it possible they want to keep open the option of Marmol starting? Maybe after 2009, re-sign Gregg, and make Marmol a starter? Perhaps because they traded several starters depth (Samardzija, Marshall, Heilman) mid-season for a top-notch starter? In supporting your argument, would you care to offer an example or two? Who has been better than Marmol as a set-up man, and/or first two years as a set-up man. Some have offered examples (i.e. Rivera). Do you want to even, like, you know, comment on them? Brad Lidge 2003 might be an example. He didn't get closer money until he actually spent time as a closer. Well, um, like, you know, in support, I think we covered that the Marmol comparables are in the ilk of Rivera, K-Rod, Lidge, and to a lesser degree a few others. My comment is that from those comparisons the conclusion I draw is that Marmol is no ordinary "set up" man but a exceptional reliever. If he continues to perform like he has in his past, even if he never holds the title "closer," he would likely get a "closers" contract. That point can certainly be debated, along with how much he would be offered (just one team desperate enough is all it takes to get top money), but not completely dismissed as improbable.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table. No, what you stated was, "is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer." Did I obtusely misunderstand that? i think you did. do you have someone nearby that can read it to you? i honestly have no idea how youre not understanding what i'm saying. What could i say to that (resisting urge to say your mom)? Alright, that may have been over the line. But you're a piece of work. You get cought in a complete contradiction then have the balls to come back with more insults. So lemme get this straight: you two basically agree, you just enjoy a good internet fight too much to pass on the opportunity? Right. If by "basically agree" you mean that one thinks Marmol would get paid like a top 10 closers average despite not holding the title closer and the other says that he "won't get paid like a closer" unless he held that title previously, then yes that's agreement.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table. No, what you stated was, "is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer." Did I obtusely misunderstand that? i think you did. do you have someone nearby that can read it to you? i honestly have no idea how youre not understanding what i'm saying. What could i say to that (resisting urge to say your mom)? Alright, that may have been over the line. But you're a piece of work. You get cought in a complete contradiction then have the balls to come back with more insults.

I could see that. But, he would probably be pretty much assured top 1-2 closer type money if he had that "proven closer" tag when he hit - to go along with his awesome stuff. My argument is not the role he'd be offered - he'd get the job as someone's closer for sure. The question is the difference of however many millions not having that "proven closer" tag would cost him. I'm not arguing for or against that. Your stance is not unreasonable. I'm just stating that top 10-15 closers average at the time of his FA would indeed still be a sizable contract.

then why are you arguing with me? i never suggested that he won't get a sizable one. i stated that he wont get the same one he COULD get had he brought save numbers to the negotiating table. No, what you stated was, "is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer." Did I obtusely misunderstand that?

The problem is, Marmol will have less of a negotiation base if he never assumes the closer role with the Cubs. Teams will pay - and pay dearly, I'm sure - for Marmol's arm and stuff. But, if Marmol's agent can't start the negotiations with "Carlos racked up 85 saves the last two years for the Cubs," he might not be able to get as much as he otherwise could. Does Francisco Cordero get the huge contract from the Reds without his background as a "proven" closer? I doubt it. Does Kevin Gregg cost us Jose Ceda if not for his history as a "proven" closer? Probably not. Both of these guys still would have had varying amounts of value as very good relievers, but an agent has a much better basis with which to start negotiations from if his client has X number of saves on his resume to add to the arm and stuff, etc. Now, this may just be the difference between Marmol getting $8 million in FA instead of $12 million a year, but it's still likely it'll have an effect on his paycheck - if he never assumes the role, of course. There is a difference between 2nd tier arms making more money because they've racked up saves, and 1st rate arms making a little less because they haven't racked up saves. I highly doubt a non-closing Marmol will lose out on money in free agency if he somehow spends 6 years as a shutdown reliever without spending time as a closer. Entirely possible. I still think the "proven closer" tag would earn him even more money. A fantastic arm and terrific stuff will earn him more than most any reliever, but having the "proven closer" tag to dangle around might make someone jump at him for even more. It's not a certainty, but I think it's a possibility. Again, though, I fully expect him to get the job at some point anyway. It certainly could earn him more money. 3 years of 50+ saves could get him more than K-Rod. The question is, however, could he garner a "closers" contract without ever holding the title and continuing his performance. there should be no shortage of teams willing to take a chance on his stuff over someone (like Cordero) saves records. That's what I'm saying, though - that he'll get a closer's contract either way, but not having the "proven closer" tag coming into FA would cost him money off that contract. If he never becomes the Cubs closer (extremely unlikely), he'll probably get $8-10 million a year (or so) to be a closer. If he enters FA with the "proven closer" tag, he'll probably get a job for $12-14 million as a closer. I don't think it'd cost him offers, but it'd cost him negotiating room. Not to pretend to know what amount of money he gets, but for this conversations sakes, I'll argue that he would easily get top 10-15 closers average (or that ballpark). Still a far cry from "he won't get a closers contract without holding the title".

You can understand win and save totals are not the most important thing while still acknowledging they do play a role in determining the market price of a player. Role, yes. Not completely being frozen out of a closers contract. Only in total amount of dollars. However, he would still get top 10 average if he were a FA tomorrow after spending 4 yrs with numbers like the last two seasons.

The problem is, Marmol will have less of a negotiation base if he never assumes the closer role with the Cubs. Teams will pay - and pay dearly, I'm sure - for Marmol's arm and stuff. But, if Marmol's agent can't start the negotiations with "Carlos racked up 85 saves the last two years for the Cubs," he might not be able to get as much as he otherwise could. Does Francisco Cordero get the huge contract from the Reds without his background as a "proven" closer? I doubt it. Does Kevin Gregg cost us Jose Ceda if not for his history as a "proven" closer? Probably not. Both of these guys still would have had varying amounts of value as very good relievers, but an agent has a much better basis with which to start negotiations from if his client has X number of saves on his resume to add to the arm and stuff, etc. Now, this may just be the difference between Marmol getting $8 million in FA instead of $12 million a year, but it's still likely it'll have an effect on his paycheck - if he never assumes the role, of course. There is a difference between 2nd tier arms making more money because they've racked up saves, and 1st rate arms making a little less because they haven't racked up saves. I highly doubt a non-closing Marmol will lose out on money in free agency if he somehow spends 6 years as a shutdown reliever without spending time as a closer. Entirely possible. I still think the "proven closer" tag would earn him even more money. A fantastic arm and terrific stuff will earn him more than most any reliever, but having the "proven closer" tag to dangle around might make someone jump at him for even more. It's not a certainty, but I think it's a possibility. Again, though, I fully expect him to get the job at some point anyway. It certainly could earn him more money. 3 years of 50+ saves could get him more than K-Rod. The question is, however, could he garner a "closers" contract without ever holding the title and continuing his performance. there should be no shortage of teams willing to take a chance on his stuff over someone (like Cordero) saves records.

The problem is, Marmol will have less of a negotiation base if he never assumes the closer role with the Cubs. Teams will pay - and pay dearly, I'm sure - for Marmol's arm and stuff. But, if Marmol's agent can't start the negotiations with "Carlos racked up 85 saves the last two years for the Cubs," he might not be able to get as much as he otherwise could. Does Francisco Cordero get the huge contract from the Reds without his background as a "proven" closer? I doubt it. Does Kevin Gregg cost us Jose Ceda if not for his history as a "proven" closer? Probably not. Both of these guys still would have had varying amounts of value as very good relievers, but an agent has a much better basis with which to start negotiations from if his client has X number of saves on his resume to add to the arm and stuff, etc. Now, this may just be the difference between Marmol getting $8 million in FA instead of $12 million a year, but it's still likely it'll have an effect on his paycheck - if he never assumes the role, of course. Marmol has the stuff, and assuming his performance continues, will have more important numbers to show than jst saves. Here I thought this place was refined enough not to consider wins or saves as the top measure of ability.

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!! is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works. Gee, thanks for your concern with my education but you could do more to enlighten yourself as well. Of course the pitcher with 44 saves will get a contract, but in a market where there is a need for a closers, people won't stop looking for one when that guys is signed. If a player of Marmols caliber is available he will likely garner a sizeable contract as well. Should I add in a insult to your intelligence to see if you understand my point at this time of my post? youre not following. i'm not saying that teams wont consider marmol for closer. i'm saying, again, that him pitching as a setup man the years prior to his free agency will cost him dollars when it comes time for him to sign his 3-4 year deal on the open market. I follow, I am just suggesting that you might be wrong. He's not a ordinary "set up man". Like I said earlier, he won't get a crazy contract but it would be a sizable one nonetheless. But hitting my head against the proverbial wall of intellectual superiority tires me, so I'll stop now.

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!! is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works. Ok, we all realize that if all other numbers are identical, player A will probably get more than player B. Lets look at Brian Fuentes this year: 63.7 IP, 2.73 era, 22 bb, 82 K, 1.101 whip, 30 SAVES Signed a 2 yr, 17.5 mil contract with 9 mil club option on the third year Marmols stats: 87.3 IP, 2.68 era, 41 bb, 114 K, .927 whip, 7 SAVES Call me crazy, but I have to believe that teams out there would have LINED UP to grab Marmol at this price. I sure everyone will come back now claiming that Fuentes contract is not "closer money" and we have to look at KRod. BTW, I agree Marmol will have closing experience by the time he reaches FA so its probably a non-issue. Exactly. It's as if no one would have signed BJ Ryan to a "closers contract" had he not had one year of holding that title in Balt. His numbers were insane few seasons and someone would have taken the chance. They wouldn't have paid Mariano, K-Rod money (only fools do anyways) but they would have paid him in line with most other "closers".

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!! Joey Devine? Ok, when he follows up his 45 IP with 100 IP and improves his K ratio this season we'll include him. Dotel, I could buy though the K rate is lacking so no. Marioano? Absolutely. Lidge? Close but no. Anyways, it's becoming clear that Marmols production is not just very good, but exceptional. How many of those types of guys have hit the FA market without at least one year of "Closers Role?" Not many, and I wouldn't be holding by breath for him either. Marmol is a long way off from free agency. He'll take over the closer's role before that becomes an issue, provided his arm doesn't fall off. But that's an entirely different story. When he hits his first year of arbitration, if he doesn't have save totals on his resume, it will cost him money. I'm not talking about arbitration, I'm talking about unrestricted free agency. In that market, assuming Marmol continues his dominance, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone chooses him over other guys who have held the title of closer because they foresee a better future with him. But like you said, there really is no need to have such a passionate view on this because the likelihood that Marmol reaches FA without having spent at least one season as the "closer" is remote at best.

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!! is it really this hard or are you intentionally being obtuse? a closer is someone who pitches the 9th inning when their team is winning. he's the person who racks up saves. he's also the person who gets paid more than the setup men and the long relievers (assuming service time, of course). yes, teams could and will consider marmol as someone who could be a great closer. but unless carlos has been a closer, he wont get paid like a closer. think of it this way. you've got two pitchers, equal era's, equal whips. yet player A saved 44 games last year, while player B was player A's setup man. when teams X and Y are both looking to sign a closer, and both players are on the market, do you honestly feel that each player will get the same contract? or even remotely similar for that matter? if so, you need to take an hour or so and educate yourself on how the market works. Gee, thanks for your concern with my education but you could do more to enlighten yourself as well. Of course the pitcher with 44 saves will get a contract, but in a market where there is a need for a closers, people won't stop looking for one when that guys is signed. If a player of Marmols caliber is available he will likely garner a sizeable contract as well. Should I add in a insult to your intelligence to see if you understand my point at this time of my post?

WHAT IS A CLOSER? Wow, my point does get better with all caps. IS A CLOSER A SHUT DOWN PITCHER? COULD TEAMS IN NEED OF A CLOSER CONSIDER MARMOL AS ONE OF THOSE GUYS SHOULD THE CUBS BE SILLY ENOUGH TO ALLOW HIM TO BECOME? I'M YELLING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY!! Joey Devine? Ok, when he follows up his 45 IP with 100 IP and improves his K ratio this season we'll include him. Dotel, I could buy though the K rate is lacking so no. Marioano? Absolutely. Lidge? Close but no. Anyways, it's becoming clear that Marmols production is not just very good, but exceptional. How many of those types of guys have hit the FA market without at least one year of "Closers Role?" Not many, and I wouldn't be holding by breath for him either.

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him. You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal? this discussion is getting away from the original point -- that marmol the setup man will get paid less than marmol the closer, and i was thinking out loud (or on keyboard, i should say) how badly that will affect him. if you want to go through BR pages and see if i'm wrong in my notion that marmol isn't the best setup man ever, go for it. i don't really care to though. The other point (keep an open mind that there are other points than just yours) is that obviously Marmol wont be looked at as a ordinary "set up man" . His FA value may or may not be affected by his standing as set up or closer, but it's certainly open for debate if he keeps putting up these numbers in any role.

How about asking said offended posters to complete a thought without the arrogance of all-knowing deity? Maybe a warnings/suspension threat could go in that direction once in a blue moon?

as good as marmol is, it's awfully absurd to suggest that there haven't been just as good, if not better, setup men than him. You're going to have to refresh my memory of set up men that were better than 210 K's in 150 IP and era+ or 326 and 167 over their first two full seasons. K-Rod qualifies as a equal and who else as better or equal?

Love the title "Juan "groundout to second" Pierre wants out." I guess .300 career hitter and 50 SB threat were already taken.

Mark Loretta is also an option. With the numbers crunch in the bullpen, maybe Gaudin can be used to acquire one of the better options listed above. Keppinger is the only oen of these guys who doesnt make me throw up in my mouth just a bit when I think of them in a Cubs uniform, and I don't see any reason for the Reds, like you said, a division rival to send him to us so we can bench him. Actually, Keppinger should make you throw up full throttle. Not that I think Nomar or Wiggs are available, but it what universe are they lesser players than Keppinger?

Stone is the smartest man in baseball, just ask him. Unfortunately, his words get in the way. Like when he loved the Howry/Eyre signings at the time they were made. When it became fashionable to question those moves, all he had to do was forget his opinion to continue on as the smartest man in baseball.y By the way Stoney, great move to rid yourself of the evil trib (after 20+ years and previous begging stint to get job back after walking away the first time) to continue on with some of the lowest paying jobs a commentator can get (2nd team espn and White Sox). Great career decisions.

I think (HOPE) that Koyie's had a good enough spring to make the team. Hopefully this doesn't give Bako the edge :( Yeah, the consequences of having Bakos .312 SLG (62 OPS+) make the team over Hills .280 SLG (38 OPS+) would be of epic proportions.