badnews

That seems like a rather generous interpretation of the events. But it's pointless to do this back-and-forth for too long, because I see our interpretations are so far off it makes no sense to talk much about it. Epstein and Cashman were pretty hard line about it. The Yankees had their best offer on the table for what, 2 hours, and then withdrew it. That's not taking a lot of crap. It's certainly not this "Yeah but we want Felix Pie or your best three pitching prospects plus more, and you'll let us try and wheedle you out of it" crap that's been going on for even longer than the Santana trades. Plus, the Twins had other suitors. Who do the Orioles have? A rumor about the White Sox with no basis? The phantom Indians' offer that never existed? The Twins eventually said "Make us your best offer or we're taking the Mets' offer" and the Red Sox and Yankees pretty much said what you last heard from us stands. Because this is how sane organizations operate. What have we heard from the Roberts' trade on our end? I've seen like ten reports the Orioles "are deciding which players they want" and so forth. Plus, I give a little more leeway to the fact that trading the best pitcher in baseball carries more import than trading the 5th best 2nd baseman in baseball. So the latter trade should certainly not take longer than the former, especially when there's only two teams involved, which makes this fiasco even dumber. By now there should be nothing left for rational people to discuss really.

It's a good thing ST numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt, when I checked out his a few days ago they were awfully good.

I think it's been pointed out a number of times that if Marshall's methods were as badass effective as claimed we'd be seeing a ton of flamethrowing Marshall-ites in the majors by now. They mentioned one major leaguer who tried it (I forgot who it was) but his numbers before or after were nothing exceptional. But who knows, I sure don't.

Like 15 pages ago the Roberts-at-all-costs crowd were trying to spin that there was discussion for letting this thing drag out for 3 months or into the regular season or into eternity. I think we're now well past that point. Lou has identified it as a distraction, DeRosa has expressed frustration, and Aramis has had to come out in support of DeRosa. It's a distraction people. Personally I don't blame DeRosa. I don't think organizations that are on-the-ball let themselves get jerked around by the clowns of baseball for this long. I mean really, can anyone imagine Theo Epstein, Brian Cashman, Josh Byrnes, Billy Beane, et al putting up with this farce for this long? I can't.

Linden is a poor fit. He doesn't seem to hit lefties significantly better than righties (does he?) or anyone well, he doesn't play center field well, and he strikes out just way too many times for the type of player he is. Pass.

That sounds like an insane trade from the part of the Rockies, that's why they're not doing it. The only thing "simple" about it is what an outstanding rip-off it would be. Let's look at this. The Rockies' lineup is fine. The Rockies need pitching. So what's the proposal? The Rockies send their best pitching prospect, who is also the 4th best pitching prospect in baseball, and the second best lefthanded pitching prospect in baseball, the second best pitching prospect in the NL, to the Orioles, for Brian Roberts, a guy who can improve a lineup that doesn't need improving. And all they have to do to complete this trade is send along Baseball America's #38 prospect, Ian Stewart, a guy who will likely start outproducing Roberts in one or two years. The Rockies need Franklin Morales 10x more than they need Brian Roberts. Trading the 8th and 38th best prospects in baseball for Brian Roberts doesn't make sense. Using the rankings, that's close value to trading Jay Bruce (#1) and Johnny Cueto (#34) for Brian Roberts. The idea that the Rockies should pedal a possible ace lefty, who is only 21 and has a career minor league K/9 of near 10, for a 2b they don't need makes no sense to me. If you want to trade Morales, fine, but it's got to be for pitching. And I think the Rox would agree. I don't know why it seems like every "go for it" trade proposal seems like a bad one. The Tigers made a perfectly good "go for it" trade by trading for Miguel Cabrera. In my opinion, Andrew Miller isn't going to be the ace he's hyped up to be, and the lesser four guys are nothing to write home about. That's "going for it" without going wild and paying $15 for a $5 player.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=ApKBRJza9m6laxKMelW994gRvLYF?gid=280314116 I'm pretty sure there's never been an accurate box score like that in the history of baseball.

There's two problems I see with the people who favor a Roberts trade: 1) There is no such thing as "too much." We want to win this year, so it behooves us to make a trade, no matter how we're overpaying. Nevermind that then by signalling we're doing so we're likely to be held for ransom even worse at the trade deadline. We want to win now, so that justifies any bad trade, which, history shows, is not a particular smart way think. The price for Roberts keeps going up and up and you fellows keep saying "Do it, do it." 2). The same people are talking about us picking up a starter at the deadline when I don't see any chips left for doing so after we've been taken for such a ride on this Roberts thing. I think it's a bad idea to keep making these highly emotional appeals to just use a scorched earth policy for one year and then we can not contend for another decade if we don't make it.

That sounds like smart baseball to me. Every team trades their three best pitching prospects plus more "to strengthen their bench." I also doubt DeRosa is going to hit 400 ABs.

RynoHawk23, your post is condescending and insulting. No, you can't tell anything of the sort from that. You make ill-informed presumptions, but that is about it. And Brian Roberts is the best way to do this? I am not close to convinced of that. The exaggeration here is too much. Roberts is nothing like Derrek Lee. You're trying too hard to build this guy up. That's what's insulting. Maybe YOU don't get it yet. Maybe you don't justify every crap trade with the line about "winning now," or "We haven't won the World Series in a long time." Every time Hendry collapses on one trade it probably makes the next one more difficult. The problem is, people like you use this kind of rationale on every "flavor of the month" player the Cubs are rumored to be after as the last piece to the World Series. It never ends. Everyone the Cubs are interested in the LAST PIECE to that elusive World Series championship. I just don't buy it. I don't buy the Cubs without Roberts are not a 1st round exit and the Cubs with Roberts are WS champs. This is the kind of logic where trades like the A.J. Pierzynski trade gets done. "Our window of winning the World Series with Barry Bonds is shrinking, and we've gone FOREVER without winning the World Series! If we can trade 3 nobody players for a PROVEN ALL-STAR like A.J. Pierzynski and build upon our playoff appearance last year, let's do it!" First people were campaigning that giving up 3 players would be worth it, now 4, 5 seems hot on those heels. I don't even think it's Brian Roberts you like so much I think you like the idea of doing something that seems new and pro-active and blah blah. How did that work out? Is it just me, or do the Cleveland Indians look pretty good without having to campaign for irrational trades under the mantra of "We haven't won the World Series in a long time!" I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day. You advocate trading our three best pitching prospects for Brian Roberts, then trading MORE (from where) at the deadline, and this is a smart way to win a World Series? Pin all of your hopes on one year when the AL champ is likely to put a beatdown on anyone anyway? No way. I don't agree at all, and I think thinking that Roberts puts this team anywhere close to over the top is just wishful thinking on your part. The price is going to be higher than our 3 best pitching prospects + more, which is already is? Doubtful. We're not talking about Miguel Cabrera, though some have forgotten this.

That seems like an unlikely reach given what's been reported about the deal. I don't really think using an unlikely best-case-scenario example of why that possibly might not be a good idea is really a compelling case against it, in my opinion. There is quite a vocal contingent that seems to be okay with pretty much any trade concerning Roberts. What confuses me are people who think Gallagher and Veal and such are just nothing, but shudder at the idea of giving up Ceda. I'm sorry, I just don't value relief prospects who put up good but troubling numbers in Low A as highly as most people, I guess. At this point, something else besides "Discussions are ongoing/A deal will be reached in a week/The Orioles are deciding which players they want" would be nice. I think it would be better for the possibly players involved and the team overall if Hendry said this was a closed matter by Opening Day, perhaps even if it really wasn't.

How is that stronger than "you know what I'm willing to offer, call me back when you're ready to deal"? It's not a lot stronger but the wording of one does carry more weight to it. There is a sense of finality to the former moreso than the latter. In any event if either phrase had been uttered by either side, you would think this could not go on for 3 months.

For CubbieSouthPaw This kind of sarcastic reply without any substance to it doesn't add anything to the discussion in my view. I don't know what you're trying to say. "Hey, we don't have notarized transcripts of these trade talks so Hendry gets a free pass for the rest of forever?" Well, you can do that if you like. I don't see the sense in that.

What do you mean, link to where he didn't he say this? Can I link to where he "didn't say this?" Yeah, I can. What does that prove though? What direct quote did I attribute to Hendry that you're asking for a link? Personally, to me, it looks like you're trying to bail Hendry out so you're pedantically asking for documentation when it isn't necessary. Do you honestly need a link to show that the Cubs have been talking about Roberts for 3 or more months? It's very simple. You accused Hendry for a certain behavior, and there's absolutely no evidence to show that he's acting in that way. The Orioles have always acted like this when trading a player, yet you think this time it's Hendry's fault. I'm not trying to bail out Hendry, I'm just asking for some sort of proof as to your statement. People do that all the time on this board, and justifiably so. Find me a time over the past few years when they traded an important player or signed an important player and it didn't get delayed somehow. You're being too vague. What behavior? What proof? People on this board may identify specific things they are looking for, but they most of the time do not try and shield a target through a request for what is essentially pedantic documentation. I'm not going to give you a link "proving" the Cubs and the Orioles starting talking about this 3 months ago and are still doing so. You could find that yourself if you wanted to. No, I'm not going to find you an example from the Orioles trading someone. I've already given you an example. *You* find me a time when the Orioles tried this crap and any decent GM with some actual self-respect didn't put it up with it. Here's your problem, you keep portraying the Orioles as some nutcases who have to be accommodated. No, they don't. When the Orioles pulled this screwjob crap with Tejada years ago, GMs didn't sit there and negotiate with them for 6 months on it. But you seem to think Hendry should bend over backwards for these guys. I don't. It shows weakness and incompetence to do so.

For KingCub: What do you mean, link to where he didn't he say this? Can I link to where he "didn't say this?" Yeah, I can. What does that prove though? What direct quote did I attribute to Hendry that you're asking for a link? Personally, to me, it looks like you're trying to bail Hendry out so you're pedantically asking for documentation when it isn't necessary. Do you honestly need a link to show that the Cubs have been talking about Roberts for 3 or more months? Wrong. The Orioles did not take 3 months to trade for Jaret Wright, they did not take 3 months to trade for Kris Benson, and so forth. Whenever the Orioles try to play this game with GMs who actually own a pair, they don't get anywhere. It's only in the desperate weaklings who tip their hands that they can get away with this. So it's not like every other Orioles trade really. For Wrigley23: Okay, I'm convinced now... Spring Training numbers? Remember when Garciaparra was among the leaders in ST in 2005 in everything and started out the season horribly? If he had 0 steals it would mean as much as leading everyone on Spring Training. To CubbieSouthpaw: I will not quit bashing Hendry. Any GM with self-respect would've called for a curtailing of the discussion by now. I don't think the Mariners even talked about Bedard for over three months. Furthermore, it's Bill Bavasi we're talking about, the guy who overpays for mediocrity even worse than Hendry. Bill "Hey, Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez seems like a fair deal" Bavasi. The point is, no good GMs let their chain get yanked by a crackpot organization for this long. There is no reason not to table talks with a "I'll make my best offer, you take it or leave it" demand after all of this time. But Hendry has been too weak to do that.

There's one question I'd like the Hendry supporters to answer: How can you say the man who thought setting us up this season with a middle infield of Kaz Matsui and Ryan Theriot was a good way to go about winning the World Series is a good GM? Oh, I know. He didn't sign Matsui. But even considering such a thing as seriously as he did is legal proof of his insanity in at least 18 states. Ryan Theriot and Kaz Matsui. He has nothing but great things to say about Theriot. Nobody expects him to bash Theriot. But he really believes this crap. The Cubs finished dead last in offense from the shortstop position in the NL in 2007. So what is Jim Hendry's fabulous plan? Declare that Theriot is fantastic and do nothing to address the situation but spend 3+ months getting jerked around in pursuit of another 2b. Instead of, you know, actually getting a sack and telling the Orioles at some point "This is my best offer. Take it or leave it." Gutless. Absolutely gutless. After 3 months there should be nothing left to discuss. **** or get off the pot.

No, I said the Cubs haven't produced an impact position in 20+ years. Look at when Grace came along for the Cubs. Grace was obviously better than Aurilia but I've noticed when people say "Oh wait, the Giants are as bad as the Cubs in developing position players" (And this brilliant gets Jim Hendry completely off the hook, let me tell you), I'm just pointing out Aurilia had a good stretch. Seriously, how bad are these arguments for Hendry? "He's brought in some good talent." Oh wow! We've got a $100+ million payroll and we have some talent! Let's all get together and celebrate Jim Hendry's awesomeness for not putting together the 2003 Mets... yet. Or "At least Jim Hendry isn't Ed Lynch." Fantastic! Just lower your standards! Instead of expecting and demanding, you know, a good GM, we expect one that's somewhat less horrid. Is this battered woman syndrome or something? "My boyfriend isn't so bad. My last boyfriend beat me until I had to go to the Emergency Room a couple of times. My current boyfriend is only unemployed so I support him and he verbally abuses me. But he doesn't hit me so I'm grateful!" Give me a break. Jim Hendry could be GM for the next ten years and the Cubs could finish last place every single year and the Hendry cult would still be crowing over the Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez trades. Huzzah! Even Giant fans don't cling to the Giants' World Series appearance to try and bail out Sabean.

Jim Hendry is a flat out crappy GM. He's presided in some way or another, for a long time over a farm system that hasn't produced an impact position player in over 20 years now. His drafting is governing by bizarre hang-ups that only make sense to him. Time after time he drafts some guy Baseball America is surprised to see go at that position, telling us to trust him and not them, and we get crap time after time. 20+ years with no impact position player? That's bull****. It is. Spin it all you want, it's utterly ludicrous. Even the Giants got a good 3 year run out of Rich Aurilia. Hendry defenders always cite the ancient past when it comes to trades. He just overpays for mediocrity. He made a good trade with Todd Walker and is now probably overvaluing Ceda, a 20 year old who averaged more than 6 walks per 9 innings in the pitcher friendly Midwest League and looks like an even bet to become the next Frank Beltran. Let's all overvalue our relief prospects, that's intelligent. Most of them work out, like Santiago Casilla, his evil twin Jairo Garcia, Jose Capellan, Joey Devine, Craig Hansen, Bill Bray, Travis Bowyer, Brandon League... if there's one guy you sell high on... The Kendall trade was stupid. Beane was eager to get Suzuki ABs and dump Kendall. The Trachsel trade was a magnificent feat of idiocy - there is no other GM in this solar system who would trade 3 prospects, including one of our Top 10 according to BA, for one month of Trachsel. Basically every team the past 5 years has gotten a pitcher better than Trachsel for cheaper... the Lohse trades, the Moyer trade, etc. He traded Greg Maddux for Cesar Izturis when there was every indication the Dodgers were going to send the Cubs prospects (I don't have this notorized by Bud Selig so please feel free to say it's garbage to try and vindicate Hendry), but everything I read said it was Kuo and another guy before Izturis, and I liked Kuo. He blew out his arm, yeah, but I liked him. Izturis was just crap and Hendry gave us the "All Star" line. And where would Hendry be without his money to bail his sorry ass out? Does any GM turn around and peddle off his unwanted acquisitions with cash as quickly as Hendry? Seriously, it gets to the point where you know every trade is going to have "plus cash" attached to it. Hawkins dumped with cash after 1.5 years, Jacque Jones dumped with cash after a year, they were looking to dump Dempster's salary, Marquis's salary, after just 1 year, how many others? A good GM shouldn't be looking to dump players one year after they sign them so often, like Jones and Marquis. The last four years of Soriano's contract are going to be brutal. Even inflation won't fix that. Zambrano wanted Oswalt type money after Oswalt signed an extension, but Hendry wisely put it off and cost the Cubs more money. He has a large payroll and the Cubs have not made the playoffs for 2 years in a row for how long? Oh wow - he sank a boatload of money into the team last offseason and the result was an 85 win team in a piece of crap division. Fabulous! Money well spent. The team is saddled with these backloaded contracts so that in another 3 years we'll probably look like the Giants from a few years back. He spends money on the draft abominably. For the amount of money he signed Samardzija and Huseby with, he could've signed 10 great prospects... Latos, Jordan Walden, Lars Anderson, they all signed for about $1 million. Hell, if he was throwing around that kind of money he could've signed Alex White, I think a $3 million signing bonus would make White re-think that committment. But since everyone wants to defend Hendry let's just bury our heads in the sand and say it wasn't possible. Instead we threw a ton of money on another one of Hendry's fetishes - a crap 6'6' righthanded pitcher from Notre Dame. Oh yeah, and Huseby, a guy Baseball America practically never heard of. But Hendry did, so that's okay, Hendry knows more than Baseball America. Except for Brian Sabean and Bavasi, every GM worse than Hendry is either a new hire or has already been fired. Because we have no standards. Remember when the Astros GM got fired after he took the team to the World Series? If Jim Hendry took the team to the World Series he'd get a 40 year extension no matter what. Other teams have actual standards and Hendry would've been gone long ago from any of them. But Hendry's a good GM because the Tribune gives him money to spend. Give me a break. I've had it with Hendry, I've had it with Hendry apologists who equivocate and spin everything. This is the Jim Hendry who gave Neifi Perez a ridiculous contract, this is the Jim Hendry who thought Kaz Matsui would be a great addition and apparently only the outcry stopped him from another piece of crap signing. I've had it with the crap signings, I've had it with the crap trades, I've had it with the piss-poor drafts. Why is it we all knew Travis Snider would be a better draft pick than Colvin and his hired goon who tried to pass him off as the next Alex Rios didn't? Why is that we all knew a Jordan Walden or a Matt Latos would be a better signing than Chris Huseby, but Hendry didn't? Why do small children in Burkina Faso know these things and Hendry doesn't? Because he's that good. Looking like an ineffectual weakling and getting jerked around for 3+ months on this Roberts thing, when anyone else who had an ounce of dignity would've eventually said "Here's my very best offer, take it or leave it," that's all part of his master plan. Give me a break. Hendry fans can stick to their dirt-low standards, personally I expect a little more.

The Orioles are holding all the cards in the same way the Royals were holding all the cards on Mike Sweeney when they kept trying to extort the Angels. I think the Angels offered Erick Aybar and Joe Saunders and the Royals kept holding out for Brandon Wood, the Royals were holding all the cards, holding all the cards... whoops! They aren't holding any cards at all. Bye bye Cards. See you later cards. Hasta la vista cards.

I would take a flyer on Baldelli, no renegotiation required. I wouldn't give up anything of great value because, unlike others, I don't believe he's much more than a .780 OPS guy.

That's not really true either. You can't get as much for 1 year of Roberts as 2, so they can't wait "as long as they want." I think O's fans said the same thing about trading Tejada and they ended up getting less. There isn't going to be any bidding war no matter how long they wait. If you look at what comparable players have been traded for, the Orioles are not likely to get what they want in any case. I'm almost glad at times like this we don't have better prospects to piss away on bad trades.

Wow. There are few statements on here I disagree with more than that. That's pretty much the goal of all farm systems - to turn your players into guys who get a cup of coffee and are never heard of again. I mean just think of where our player development production would be without guys like Francis Beltran or Buck Coats or Jason Dubois or Todd Wellemeyer or Felix Sanchez. We're the envy of all the other teams who just wish they could develop all the 5 minute call-ups we have!

I imagine it's written obviously somewhere, I just haven't seen it. Injured again?

For the 2nd half of the season? I heard it was better than the first which would give me some hopes but I don't know of anywhere you can find splits like that.

I think people may be overlooking that Ross in center field is kind of a cheat. That's fine for the Marlins, they've apparently given up on the idea of playing defense, I don't know about here, though. How much is Cody Ross in center field than Murton? Ross in center field is one of those cheats similar to when teams would play Dustan Mohr in center field, and you'd look up their positions and say "Oh yeah, Mohr, he's a center fielder, he's played there" but really, not really. Aside from that, this has typical Cub move written all over it. Pay out the ying-yang for a guy who had an impossibly good year who has only been available on the waiver wire about 5 times in his career.