USSoccer

Which means nothing. There are 2 decent offensive players available this winter. There are 2 decent FA pitchers. NY is going to need a pitcher. LA is going to need one. Soriano and Lee are going to be wildly overvalued in that market. There is ZERO guarantee we'd be able to sign one of Zito, Schmidt, Lee or Soriano, and even if we did, niether of Lee or Soriano are better than Ramirez. Zito is okay. Schmidt is so-so, and is an injury risk. And if you were going to overpay one just to make sure you got one, why not overpay to guarantee you keep Ramirez, who's again, better than Lee and Soriano are?

Overpay. Like we were going to with Furcal?

That doesnt even make sense. The comparison isnt santana and Lee vs a FA pitcher and Ramirez. The comparison is Santana and Lee vs Lee, Ramirez, And a FA pitcher. Since when does keeping ramirez mean losing lee? Carlos Lee. Well, then why does keeping ramirez mean we cant sign Carlos lee AND a FA pitcher. We have woods contract coming off the books next year and we are a big market team. Money isnt our issue. Well, with the trade we could sign Lee and a pitcher alot easier. Just like ths past winter, when we had all that salary getting freed up, right? Couting on FA sighnings is a very risky move

So what happens when Lee & Soriano sign elsewhere? We'd suck something fierce.

If these rating are on target, then Aybar is better than Cedeno. More than "slightly" better. The difference is that Aybar has not been exposed to ML pitching. Their weaknesses are basically the same. Ask yourself, "What is Aybar's absolute ceiling". If everything works out, what's the best he can be?

There are few offensive upgrades out there in the FA market, and even if you sign one of them, you're right back to status quo, really. You'd have to sign 2 good offensive players if you deal Aramis But you also wouldn't have to worry about getting another SP because of Santana. It's a pretty big risk, but if you feel that Ramirez is likely to opt out, I'd be real tempted to do it and insert myself in a deal for Ensberg. or like you said earlier, maybe he opts out for more money, in which case you make another run at signing Aram this is interesting in that the prevailing sentiment as that the O's are nuts for not trading Tejada for these two players, but the Cubs would be nuts to trade Aram for these two players. Tejada is at least 4 years older, has a more onerous contract and has been roughly as productive as Aramis has been over the last 3 or so seasons. Tejada will decline as he finishes out his contract. Baltimore is going nowhere as they stand, so why not use a player that's older and only going to get worse to inject youth into your team? Conversely, Aramis is 28, in his prime, productive provided he has some sembalance of lineup protection, and even if he renegotiates his deal for $15m, is still a better value than Tejada.

There are few offensive upgrades out there in the FA market, and even if you sign one of them, you're right back to status quo, really. You'd have to sign 2 good offensive players if you deal Aramis But you also wouldn't have to worry about getting another SP because of Santana. It's a pretty big risk, but if you feel that Ramirez is likely to opt out, I'd be real tempted to do it and insert myself in a deal for Ensberg. Unless Aramis truly hates playing in Chicago, we should be able to retain him, even if he opts out for more money. A team with Ramirez that adds on pitchers is better than a team with Santana that tries to add hitters like Soriano or Lee.

There are few offensive upgrades out there in the FA market, and even if you sign one of them, you're right back to status quo, really. You'd have to sign 2 good offensive players if you deal Aramis Sign Carlos Lee and the offense is a wash. Then factor in Santana and it's an improvement. Then facto in Aybar and it's an even better improvement. Ayber sounds like a slightly better Ronny Cedeno. Santana is good, but I want more than that for Aramis.

There are few offensive upgrades out there in the FA market, and even if you sign one of them, you're right back to status quo, really. You'd have to sign 2 good offensive players if you deal Aramis

You'reright. Given Aramis' age and production, we should get more for him than Tejada would fetch.

Sounds a lot like a certain shortstop that we all know and love. Sounds like the kind of player who's weaknesses would be exacerbated by our coaches.

It's still not enough for me to want to trade Aramis.

Tejada won't play 3rd. And Hendry should tell the Angels to go scratch.

That's...interesting. If true, more than they;ve been rumored to be getting.

IF that happens, it's one of the dumbest trades in Cub history, and if it's because Hendry gave Ramirez that stupid out clause, he should be fired right away. You don't give up 28 year old power hitting 3B for prospects when you're a big market team.

Lidge is so much better than Dempster it's not funny. Blalock hits .202 against LHP, and has 12 HR's playing in Arlington. I don't like either side of that deal. Texas would want a better player than Dempster, and I'd want a better 3B replacement than Blalock. Trading ARam for prospects is a waste. We do not have the ability to develop positional prospects. If I had to deal Aramis, I'd rather deal lesser players for prospects and trade ARam for a run producer.

I'd see about sending one of our better P prospects for one of the 3. And remember, the Cubs have drafted Bobby Brownlie and Ben Christensen, and strongly pursued Furcal this winter, so it's not like they've always hung up on charachter.

Consider the source, but this morning on Talking Baseball Bruce Levine said Ramirez has told him repeatedly over the last 2 weeks that he wants to stay and won't use the opt out clause.

I cannot believe they got him for nothing.

He was only 5 games over .500. With the team we had I think most pitchers could have done pretty well. Hell even Rusch was pretty good that year for us. Either way this argument should be irrelevant as it was over two years ago and both Maddux and the team have gotten worse. IMHO maddux has not gotten worse. but the team definately has and that is what is making Maddux look worse. G GS W L Sv QS Hld IP H ER R HR BB SO K/9 P/GS WHIP ERA 33 33 16 11 0 20 0 212.2 218 95 103 35 33 151 6.39 88.7 1.18 4.02 35 35 13 15 0 18 0 225.0 239 106 112 29 36 136 5.44 88.6 1.22 4.24 22 22 9 11 0 10 0 136.1 153 71 78 14 23 81 5.35 85.9 1.29 4.69 His WHIP, ERA, Hits have all increased each season since he's been here. His K/9 has decreased every year. He's definetly gotten worse. everything but the ERA is his fault.... the ERA is the teams fault.... thats why I say he is still as good as he was when we brought him home in 04 How is his ERA the team's fault? ERA is Earned Run Average. The team has very, very little to do with how many runs Maddux gives up relative to his IP.

That's the sense I get, too. There'd be no reason to commit money to a 41 year old pitcher who's numbers indicate a steady decline.

Nirvana is possibly the most overrated band ever. If Cobain doesn't die, they have a Pearl Jam/Pumpkins type career arc. Not bad, but not earth shatteringly great.

As other have pointed out, you have: Z Prior Marshall Marmol Guzman Hill Rusch Williams Ryu as candidates for starting games the rest of the season. Keeping Maddux means you have one less spot for Guzman and Hill to get acclimated to ML play. Going down to Iowa will accomplish nothing for Hill; he needs to be here. Guzman is getting back to where he needs to be; by September he should be here starting. Ryu can piggyback Marshall or Marmol to keep their innings down, and Williams and Rusch can go long for Z to keep his innings and pitch counts down. And that list doesn't include any other pitchers that might be added to the 40 man once another player is dealt. Bottom line is that Hill and Guzman need to be here, and need to be in a rotation the rest of the way. Maddux being here makes that more difficult. Z has a legit shot at the Cy Young, so I doubt they'll skip him much, and they can't skip Prior-they need him to work the rest of the season in preparation for 2007. that's a good idea to keep the innings of the youngsters down while getting them some experience. problem is it is hypothetical, and we are trying to forecast what could/should happen in reality, and what you suggest wouldn't happen in reality considering who our manager is. It definetly won't happen if Maddux stays. In addition to the Z and Prior reasons, he'd kep starting Maddux out of deference, which means there's one less spot for him to use 5 young pitchers. Take Maddux away, and you'll make the situation a little more "Dusty-Proof". I can see Marshall's IP being limited a bit anyway thanks to his oblique strain, which means only Marmol really needs to be protected.

He was only 5 games over .500. With the team we had I think most pitchers could have done pretty well. Hell even Rusch was pretty good that year for us. Either way this argument should be irrelevant as it was over two years ago and both Maddux and the team have gotten worse. IMHO maddux has not gotten worse. but the team definately has and that is what is making Maddux look worse. G GS W L Sv QS Hld IP H ER R HR BB SO K/9 P/GS WHIP ERA 33 33 16 11 0 20 0 212.2 218 95 103 35 33 151 6.39 88.7 1.18 4.02 35 35 13 15 0 18 0 225.0 239 106 112 29 36 136 5.44 88.6 1.22 4.24 22 22 9 11 0 10 0 136.1 153 71 78 14 23 81 5.35 85.9 1.29 4.69 His WHIP, ERA, Hits have all increased each season since he's been here. His K/9 has decreased every year. He's definetly gotten worse.

Nothing that would make us better in 2007. Trading him to Anaheim means we'd be getting good prospects back. Do you have faith in this organization to develop prospects when we've developed a total of, what, 5 MLB positional regulars in past 20 years? If you deal Aramis, you should deal Lee, Barrett and nearly everyone else and prepare for 2009. There should be only 2 preconditions for trading ARam: that he's definetly going to opt out (in which case Hendry should be fired for that idiotic out clause) and you can get back a run producer at 3B or OF, a solid MLB regular at the other position from the run producer, and a top positional prospect. Anything short of that writes off the next 2 seasons.