Hacking Out Machine

This is a great point. With Lugo coming aboard, if not for his contract, Izturis would likely have been DFA'd or at best a late inning replacement when Kent comes back from the DL. Now they are rid of Izruris and his contract.

What did he do then? He created an 88 win team, the same win total from 2 year before. Big freaking deal. I didn't say there is nothing in his past. I said there is nothing in his past that indicates he can make the moves that will make this team a winner. That team was already in place, including a HOF corner OF and several great young pitchers (before he allowed the manager to abuse the crap out of them). This team needs a ton of work, and what it needs most is OBP. Jim refuses to get OBP, so we know that won't be addressed. He didn't prove me wrong, he actually lived up to my worst nightmares by hiring Dusty Baker, ignoring the value of walks, sticking with antiquated baseball theories that have since been proven wrong..... etc. Jim started making mistakes at the beginning, only the mistakes just kept getting worse and worse. It's a downward trend that shows no signs of abating. Very, very well said.

Don't forget squandering the depth that we once had in our system, retaining the wrong players and holding onto others long after their values peaked. Also don't forget devaluing his own players to almost nothing and trading them at their absolute lowest value.

Poorly made, yes. Cheap, no. I think Jim Hendry might be the only GM in baseball who can fashion a $100M payroll with about 3 worthwhile players on it. They've got $22 million tied up in Dempster, Eyre, Howry, Izturis, Perez and Rusch alone and with all due respect to Howry and Eyre, none of these guys can significantly alter a team toward a championship.

Surprised? Really? All Hendry cares about is ceiling. What he nevers gets is anybody capable of reaching their ceiling. I expected a AAA reliever or a toolsy no hit slick-gloved middle IF. I expected an A ball reliever with a 2.9 WHIP who can't strike anyone out, but is tall or looks good in a uniform. Call me surprised as well. At least this kid misses bats. It's refreshing to see a Cubs pitching acquisition who has some results rather than just projectibility.

Well said! It is fun discussing some of these rumors, but I've seen pages and pages criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson, Carl Crawford, Abreu, Soriano, etc. for a variety of statistical reasons. Meanwhile, back at the ballpark, the Cubs are on their way to losing 100 games. Hendry is an idiot for wanting Soriano and Kenny Williams is a genius for getting him. You've seen pages and pages of criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson or Abreu? I sure as hell haven't. I'm not even sure there are pages criticizing them for thinking about Soriano. It's not the type of move I'd like to see them make, but I'm not adamently opposed to it either. I've seen Crawford brought up on occasion, usually in the positive. people criticized possibly acquiring soriano before he changed his hitting strategy, began making pitchers throw him good pitches and became non-overrated for the first time in his career. We, the fans, want the Cubs to improve OBP. The more guys they get on base, the more guys score. It isn't that anyone is opposed to a Soriano (if we ignore price tag), but rather this organization is in love with tools and has zero value for the walk. What that entails in the big picture is solo home runs and not much else. If you build a team the right way, there's room for a poor OBP guy like Soriano in your line up. When the line up consists of poor OBP guys throughout, a guy like Soriano isn't going to help the team all that much. I would have no issues at all sticking a Nomar or a Soriano in the 5 or 6 spot in the line up and let them beat the crap out of the ball and rarely ever take a pitch. However, for these guys to have true value at what they do, they need guys on base in front of them. Someone said they didn't want crawford? When was this and where was I? A team that looked like this: Crawford Loretta Lee Ramirez Jones Soriano Barrett Cedeno would be pretty good. That's two guys ahead of Lee that get on base nearly 36% of the time. I'd like to see more done to the line up than this, but this gives you an idea of how a couple of good OBP guys at the top and another power bat in the middle can turn a bad offense into a good offense. Switch Cedeno with Tejada and let the fun begin on where you put everyone in the line up. A line up like that, and I wouldn't care if Neifi was coming off the bench, because no manager in their right mind would sit Loretta or Tejada very often. The skeptics are probably mostly a little leery of what would need to be given up to land that kind of talent, not necessarily opposed to getting a Soriano or a Crawford. Dusty would sit Loretta for Neifi in a heartbeat. But of course, he isn't in his right mind. Just like no manager in his right mind would play Jones everyday against lefties, Neifi against righties(3rd game in a row by the way), etc

True, but in his career, he's always had at least one terrible month a season and still posted a .360-.370 OBP in 2003-2004. I guess I'm just waiting to see if he posts another terrible month or not. If his next two months are like his last, and his OBP goes up to .340-.350 range, then it becomes a tougher decision I think. Now if we can trade him for value right now for somebody looking to make a run with his hot bat, then I'm all for that as well. I keep trying to make the point that his prior career numbers included a time when he was beating out routine grounders to the infield. Again, he is not doing that anymore, so you are not talking about the same guy. He has regressed. I don't want to hear about what he has done in the past because he had wheels then that he doesn't have now. He won't post a .360-.370 OBP unless he hits .330. Without the ability to beat out as many infield hits as he used to, he's got no chance of doing that.

He's going to get at least 10m a year come next year. It's what the current market demands. I mean is Furcal worth 13m a year? Is AJ Burnett worth 5\60 million? No and no. Just b/c people are stupid enough to pay average players crazy money doesn't mean you jump into the stupid pool. He may get $10m from someone next year, in fact I'd be surprised if he didn't, but he'll be 31 next year and he has a career .835 OPS. For a corner OF, that's above average, but not $10m worth. Put it this way - the team that pays him $10m next year is not going to get a good return on their investment (disclaimer - if he moves back to 2B that helps, but I still think $10m is too much - Walker had a better OPS each of the last 2 seasons). OPS or no OPS, Walker isn't even in the same universe as Soriano (except when it comes to defense). The game isn't value ball, it's baseball and Todd Walker's name should not be even associated with Soriano's. Good grief, some people should watch a game and then try to tell us Walker is a good ballplayer. Good Grief is right...

Well said! It is fun discussing some of these rumors, but I've seen pages and pages criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson, Carl Crawford, Abreu, Soriano, etc. for a variety of statistical reasons. Meanwhile, back at the ballpark, the Cubs are on their way to losing 100 games. Hendry is an idiot for wanting Soriano and Kenny Williams is a genius for getting him. You've seen pages and pages of criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson or Abreu? I sure as hell haven't. I'm not even sure there are pages criticizing them for thinking about Soriano. It's not the type of move I'd like to see them make, but I'm not adamently opposed to it either. I've seen Crawford brought up on occasion, usually in the positive. people criticized possibly acquiring soriano before he changed his hitting strategy, began making pitchers throw him good pitches and became non-overrated for the first time in his career. Consider me a big fan of Soriano. He's become a much better hitter, as you suggest, because he is drawing a lot more walks. With his speed and power, even a decent OBP makes him a great player to have, and he's taking pitches now. it's probably because pitchers are being that much more careful with him, but kudos to him for laying off the pitches. He's made himself a heck of a player.

And if he was, he would be hitting like Corey Patterson did for us. Yep, he would, after Clines, Sarge and Dusty beat the plate discipline and overall great hitting habits he currently possesses out of him. i think that was his point, but i could be wrong. anyhow, i'm sick of hearing about quentin--the fact that the cubs have never had a player comparable to him turns my stomach. quentin is and will be an amazing player in the big leagues--but the cubs will never possess him. The Cubs will never produce a hitter as good as Scott Hairston, let alone Carlos Quentin.

I am a subscriber to this theory, especially about losing a step from home to first. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him hit a slow roller to the left side of the infield, expect him to beat it out, and watch him get thrown out. If he's lost a step, he is overwhelmingly likely to continue to see a decline in his BA. He never walks, so his OBP will suffer as well. He might end up this year with numbers that might translate to an average season. However, it is very likely that he will stink again in the first half next year. If that happens, the Cubs will be right where they are now, or close to it, regardless of the other moves they make. You simply cannot have a .250 OBP in the leadoff spot and expect to score any runs. If the Cubs bring him back, and he hits like he has for the past 3 weeks, great. In my opinion, though, there is a much higher likelihood that he hits like he did the entire first half. That prospect is much too risky for me, even when I don't know what the alternative is. Why is it far more likely that he hits the way he hit some of the first half though? He had 2 horrible months-it's not a pattern for him, so why would you expect him to be that bad next year? His OBP my month April:.287 May: .267 June: .352 July: .390 He certainly has been hitting better for more than 3 weeks now. Could he do his June and July production for all of next year? I don't know, but I don't see how that is any less likely then for him to bat like he did in April and May. He himself said the weather had a big effect, which I think is a terrible excuse, but even if it's true, it'll be cold again next year. Secondly, he's had a nice string where his myriad of ground balls are finding holes. As was mentioned, his OBP is a direct effect of his BA, since he seldom walks. If you are relying on a random stat like BABIP as the primary driver of your OBP, you're going to see some bad stretches, especially if you're not beating out the infield hits you used to. He used to be impossible to throw out on any slow roller. That's why he was a .300 career hitter. It isn't that way anymore. He has to hit .310-.320 to be a truly effective leadoff man, and I just don't think he'll do that.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times. What in the world do strikeouts have to do with it? Others have already made the point, but I say he will never start walking because he never has walked in the past, and because he swings at everything. I'm also not the optimistic sort that believes a calm air of selectivity will magically come over him, especially within this hammerheaded organization. Maybe I'm being unfair in my expectation...

I am a subscriber to this theory, especially about losing a step from home to first. I can't tell you how many times I've seen him hit a slow roller to the left side of the infield, expect him to beat it out, and watch him get thrown out. If he's lost a step, he is overwhelmingly likely to continue to see a decline in his BA. He never walks, so his OBP will suffer as well. He might end up this year with numbers that might translate to an average season. However, it is very likely that he will stink again in the first half next year. If that happens, the Cubs will be right where they are now, or close to it, regardless of the other moves they make. You simply cannot have a .250 OBP in the leadoff spot and expect to score any runs. If the Cubs bring him back, and he hits like he has for the past 3 weeks, great. In my opinion, though, there is a much higher likelihood that he hits like he did the entire first half. That prospect is much too risky for me, even when I don't know what the alternative is.

And Soriano crushes him in the SLG/OPS department. Now compare Pierre to Damon and Sizemore and Granderson and Ichiro and Rollins and Roberts (both) and Youkilis and Reyes and Podsednik and Biggio and Weeks. ok i didPierre: OBP AVG SLG .351 .302 .375 Damon: OBP AVG SLG .353 .290 .433 Weeks: OBP AVG SLG .348 .256 .397 Hmm...looks like Pierre is average compared to them. I am not saying I wound not rather have one of them... just saying with what is available... I would rather have Pierre. I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything. Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

"Attitude, hustle." Sounds like he's right up Hendry's alley. His bloody nose early this year will probably make him about an additional $10Million over his career and a rep as a valuable "charachter guy" that someone will undoubtedly overvalue. He's an average player, at best. There are probably 10-15 guys in AAA that can match his overall production. On a side note, with the Sox struggling, I can't wait until we start hearing people bemoan the Rowand trade because it stole away the Sox's "Heart and Soul" or whatever inane garbage. Thome has single handedly won about 20 games for the Sox this year with his power and presence in the lineup. It was a masterstroke by Williams, and if they hadn't made that trade, with the pitching they've gotten this year, they's be out of the race. I think that is quite an exaggeration since many AAA players never make it to the majors, let alone become starters in CF for a World Series winner. I agree that Thome has saved the White Sox this year, but they expected some production out of CF and haven't gotten any. Thome has been an outstanding addition to the Sox, but they have missed the production and "Heart and Soul" that Rowand has provided. The Sox were even rumored as possible trade partners to get Rowand back. You don't think there are 10-15 guys in AAA who could hit .275 with 13-15 HR and play good defense in CF? We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Also, as for the last paragraph, take Thome off this team, and put Rowand back, and the Sox are at .500 right now, even with all the red-ass-ness, want to, character, whatever. If there were, they would be starters in the majors and not playing at AAA. As for the comment on Thome, I agreed that Thome has saved the Sox this year, but Rowand did add something to the Sox that they lack this year. It's not an either/or discussion. If the Sox could get Rowand back, they would run away with the division this year. This first sentence is a very naive statement. By assuming that, you are assuming that every GM in baseball has every player's potential adequately pegged. Every year, there are guys that are brought up from AAA and provide league average or better production, and sometimes these guys are 28-30 years old, who were finally given a shot. Your statement assumes that someone's potential is limited to what league some GM feels he should play at. Do you think there is some type of magic indicator that measures when a guy can put up league average numbers, and when that indicator lights up, the player is automatically penciled in a big league lineup every day? As for your second comment, Rowand is hitting .255 .317 .425. His defense is no better than Anderson's. You're saying the Sox could go from 6.5 games out to "running away" with the division (up 6 games) if they acquire an average hitting(and his numbers aren't average)) CF? Aaron Rowand by himself is not worth 12 games in the standings, I don't care how many gutsy plays he makes or pats on the back he gives his teammates.

"Attitude, hustle." Sounds like he's right up Hendry's alley. His bloody nose early this year will probably make him about an additional $10Million over his career and a rep as a valuable "charachter guy" that someone will undoubtedly overvalue. He's an average player, at best. There are probably 10-15 guys in AAA that can match his overall production. On a side note, with the Sox struggling, I can't wait until we start hearing people bemoan the Rowand trade because it stole away the Sox's "Heart and Soul" or whatever inane garbage. Thome has single handedly won about 20 games for the Sox this year with his power and presence in the lineup. It was a masterstroke by Williams, and if they hadn't made that trade, with the pitching they've gotten this year, they's be out of the race. I think that is quite an exaggeration since many AAA players never make it to the majors, let alone become starters in CF for a World Series winner. I agree that Thome has saved the White Sox this year, but they expected some production out of CF and haven't gotten any. Thome has been an outstanding addition to the Sox, but they have missed the production and "Heart and Soul" that Rowand has provided. The Sox were even rumored as possible trade partners to get Rowand back. You don't think there are 10-15 guys in AAA who could hit .275 with 13-15 HR and play good defense in CF? We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Also, as for the last paragraph, take Thome off this team, and put Rowand back, and the Sox are at .500 right now, even with all the red-ass-ness, want to, character, whatever.

"Attitude, hustle." Sounds like he's right up Hendry's alley. His bloody nose early this year will probably make him about an additional $10Million over his career and a rep as a valuable "charachter guy" that someone will undoubtedly overvalue. He's an average player, at best. There are probably 10-15 guys in AAA that can match his overall production. On a side note, with the Sox struggling, I can't wait until we start hearing people bemoan the Rowand trade because it stole away the Sox's "Heart and Soul" or whatever inane garbage. Thome has single handedly won about 20 games for the Sox this year with his power and presence in the lineup. It was a masterstroke by Williams, and if they hadn't made that trade, with the pitching they've gotten this year, they's be out of the race.

**sigh**

And if he was, he would be hitting like Corey Patterson did for us. Yep, he would, after Clines, Sarge and Dusty beat the plate discipline and overall great hitting habits he currently possesses out of him.

Yeah, so what? That's his opinion. Williamson was bad. He fetched little because he was worth little. 28.1 IP 27 H 32 K. Williamson struggled because he walked too many guys, but a smart organization will find a spot for a guy who gives up less than a hit an inning and strikes out more than a guy per inning. Those guys don't grow on trees, and can definitely a help a team. Williamson was a good pickup by Hendry for little cost. The ability to strike out anyone that steps in the box against you is a valuable asset, especially in a relief role.

Because they are terrible, like I explained in the original post. I'm not expecting top flight stuff for Williamson, just not the garbage we ended up getting. If the roles were reversed and the Cubs were in contention and had just given up 2 of their top 20 prospects for a pitcher with equivalent numbers to Williamson people would be ripping Hendry. Hendry has been shopping Williamson for a while now and if there was a better deal out there I am sure he would have taken it. To assume a strong market exists for a middle reliever that has an era over 5.00 and a questionable elbow is quite a reach. Those guys are top 30 prospects because San Diego's system is a joke. They're terrible, and if we had given up players with their numbers and their careers to get a reliever for a pennant chase, everyone would've been plenty fine with it because no one would miss Todd Blackford and Carlos Perez. that system may be garbage Tiger but you'd have no idea... I hope I don't offend anyone, but this kind of response bothers me. Professional members of our forum are owed a level of respect for choosing to post here. They bring a perspective that regular fans like us don't have. (Bruce Miles being the best example). For that, I am very grateful, as I'm sure everyone on the board is. However, generally, these "professional" members refrain from any back and forth nitpicking or any direct negative comments to any posters. In my opinion, when they do this, as Nathan has here, they are, to me, just another poster here and the level of respect given to them as a result of their position goes out the window. If you make a comment like that, you have to back it up with some sort of baseball acumen, not just a high and mighty attitude of "I call play by play for the Chiefs and you don't". Just because someone watches a lot of baseball doesn't mean that they have any clue what attributes make a good baseball player, or what strategies contribute best to winning. As far as evidence of baseball acumen goes, I think TT has contributed a ton more good thoughts here than most posters. As I mentioned before, I am very grateful to have the play by play voice of the Chiefs with us on this forum...it's just that this last comment really rubbed me the wrong way..

Not that I agree with a move like this, but the Indians feel that they are probably going to have to move Martinez out from behind the plate because of his complete inability to throw anyone out at second. Teams are running on him at will. He's a good enough hitter to be above average at just about any position(he'll probably end up at first), so they certainly wouldn't be averse to acquiring some catching prospects.

In other words, Dave Kingman. Or Rob Deer? Rob Deer walked a lot. A definite 3 true outcomes type player. Deer was also a great defensive outfielder. My guess is that Ryan Harvey will wish he could be a good as Rob Deer. Wow. That's pessimistic isn't it?

#3 hitter in the lineup sacrificing when down 2 runs with one out against a rookie pitcher who's already walked 5 guys? Cross Garner off the list of managers to replace Dusty. He was trying to bunt for a hit. He may have been successful if he had been blessed with Neifi-like speed. Not watching, just following along on MLB.com. Sorry...

#3 hitter in the lineup sacrificing when down 2 runs with one out against a rookie pitcher who's already walked 5 guys? Cross Garner off the list of managers to replace Dusty.