The Voice of Reason

Hey Faceman, thanks for the compliment over at Gateway. :lol: Got to disagree about Jimmy "The Diver" Edmonds though.

Yes it is. Oh I agree with you guys here, I dont see why there would be any need for Ankiel to use HGH. All I am saying is if Ankiel had a prescription for it then which it looks like he did. Then it has yet to be proven how he has done anything illegal that broke either MLB or US laws. Now there is obviously a moral debate about if it was right or wrong no matter what the laws are. But that is all I have been trying to point out that so far nothing has come out that would warrant any sort of punishment. What your failing to grasp is that the "perscription" might as well have come from Dr. Doolittle. What is so hard for you to understand about what I am saying. I am saying that I dont agree with what he did but he didnt do anything illegal. If the doctor had a medical license and gave Ankiel a prescription then it wasnt illegal for Ankiel as far as I know. I will say it again he didnt deserve to have a prescription but he did therefore it wasnt illegal to use it no matter who the doctor is. http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/020306BronxDoc.html What are you talking about? Just because a doctor prescribes you something does not mean it's legal. Exactly. Thank you.

Yes it is. Oh I agree with you guys here, I dont see why there would be any need for Ankiel to use HGH. All I am saying is if Ankiel had a prescription for it then which it looks like he did. Then it has yet to be proven how he has done anything illegal that broke either MLB or US laws. Now there is obviously a moral debate about if it was right or wrong no matter what the laws are. But that is all I have been trying to point out that so far nothing has come out that would warrant any sort of punishment. What your failing to grasp is that the "perscription" might as well have come from Dr. Doolittle.

His ERA is over 4 in one of those seasons. I don't think he's worth 5.3. But he's here already and is the best candidate to close. Just watched the highlights of the 9th this morning. It's hard to get pissed at Dempster. The first guy hit an outside pitch the other way. The 2nd at bat should have been a double play, and at the very least, a fielders choice. The homerun was a pop-up that floated into the basket. There's really no reason for people to get all pissy about Dempster. He's far from great, but he's been fine this year, and he's been fine throughout the majority of his time on the Cubs. His cumulative ERA over the last four years is over 4 which is not good. Actually, it's 3.88. And since we're talking about his ability as a closer, perhaps you shouldn't include his horrible numbers in six starts at the beginning of 2005. Let's face it, everyone knows he's not good in a starting role. His ERA as a reliever over the last four years is 3.65. While not stellar, it's much better than "over 4." Thanks for doing the actual math. Obviously I was just estimating. While your at it, could you compare a 3.65 ERA to the top 10 closers in the NL over the last four years? Maybe then you guys can change my opinion about Dempster.

Yes it is.

Would you expect any less from fans that turned a blind eye to LaRusa's drunken binge, the drug use of Hancock and Spiezo and who dubbed Rick Ankiel "The Natural." Yeah, he's about as Natural as Pamela Anderson's boobs. :roll: Its not cause I am a Cards fan that I am defending Ankiel, if it came out that a Cubs player got HGH legally prescribed to him in 2004 when it was legal, and there was no proof that he has used it since I would defend him too. If it comes out that Ankiel is still using them, then I have no problem with him being suspended. But as for now he got something from a doctor, no doubt a shady doctor, but he got something that was legal at the time to help with his rehab. I dont really see how anyone can get that mad at him. I know this is gonna come off as a Cards homer, but this was a former phenom coming off injury trying to save his career. He saw that this drug HGH could help him do that and it wasnt illegal at the time, there is a good chance that alot of guys would have done the same thing to save their careers to I respect your passion for defending all things Cardinal but isn't the "I thought it was OK because all the other kids are doing it" excuse supposed to end around junior high? I thought the " I thought it was ok cause everyone else was" excuse only worked if you were doing something wrong. Ankiel got a prescription from a doctor to do a drug that was legal at the time. So I dont need to use that excuse cause there is no proof that Ankiel has done anything wrong or illegal. You make it sound like Ankiel got the HGH on a visit to the Mayo clinic not through the mail from a sleazy "doctor." http://nmsn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7199412

Would you expect any less from fans that turned a blind eye to LaRusa's drunken binge, the drug use of Hancock and Spiezo and who dubbed Rick Ankiel "The Natural." Yeah, he's about as Natural as Pamela Anderson's boobs. :roll: Its not cause I am a Cards fan that I am defending Ankiel, if it came out that a Cubs player got HGH legally prescribed to him in 2004 when it was legal, and there was no proof that he has used it since I would defend him too. If it comes out that Ankiel is still using them, then I have no problem with him being suspended. But as for now he got something from a doctor, no doubt a shady doctor, but he got something that was legal at the time to help with his rehab. I dont really see how anyone can get that mad at him. I know this is gonna come off as a Cards homer, but this was a former phenom coming off injury trying to save his career. He saw that this drug HGH could help him do that and it wasnt illegal at the time, there is a good chance that alot of guys would have done the same thing to save their careers to I respect your passion for defending all things Cardinal but isn't the "I thought it was OK because all the other kids are doing it" excuse supposed to end around junior high?

I think this reads suspended. The voice of reason? It's been fixed. As for the name, sorry all the cool names like "Faceman" were already taken. :roll: Good one. I wasn't picking names based on coolness or creativity - but at least I am really really really really good looking and popular with the ladies, exhibiting the traits of my handle's motivation. I'm surprised your didn't go with "The Modest Faceman." :roll:

I think this reads suspended. The voice of reason? It's been fixed. As for the name, sorry all the cool names like "Faceman" were already taken. :roll:

you're right...mlb should step in and disqualify the cardinals from the 2007 season because he got hgh shipments in 2005 and some guy on a message board says ankiel allegedly used coke like eight years ago (and because they don't "deserve" it). let's just see if mlb can mandate a division title for the cubs while we're at it. the whining in this thread would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. Whatever. More of your ultra-sarcastic B.S. I couldn't care less. There are plenty of other things that could be done. How about a suspension, or at least an actual investigation of Ankiel? But hey, don't let that stop you from acting like a dick. come on, a suspension? you're asking for a guy to be suspended now because there's a rumor that he received hgh, which wasn't illegal, three years ago? give a me break. that's ridiculous. if this was a cub player and cardinal message boards were calling for his suspension, we'd all be quoting them here and having a great laugh. The "Natural" received a 12 month supply of HGH just before MLB outlawed it. Do you really think he didn't use any of that supply after HGH was banned from baseball? At a minimum, Blind Eye Bud should conduct an investigation. I believe they said that MLB would look into it. But again, baseball didn't outlaw it, right? Hopefully Ankiel kept a diary of when he used it, past his last purchase. Steve Howe - repeated drug offender. Jason Giambi - admitted to using PEDs. No suspension. Yes, clearly Ankiel should be suspended. :roll: I never said he should be suspended just investigated.

that's different. soto's a cub. And there are no press reports about him receiving a shipment of HGH in the mail. I know, I know, details, details, . .

That's hilarious. You mean he became a better hitter when he stopped pitching? Wow, must be PEDs. . . lol Are you telling me no one in baseball has ever made that jump clean? 11 homers in minor league ball? Priceless. Good point. There's been huge one year jumps in home runs by major leaguers that hadn't previously showed power before (or ever again) - just look at Brady Anderson, Luis Gonzalez, Lenny Dykstra, etc. and no one has ever suspected them of steroids use - other than their own owners, the media, etc.

you're right...mlb should step in and disqualify the cardinals from the 2007 season because he got hgh shipments in 2005 and some guy on a message board says ankiel allegedly used coke like eight years ago (and because they don't "deserve" it). let's just see if mlb can mandate a division title for the cubs while we're at it. the whining in this thread would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. Whatever. More of your ultra-sarcastic B.S. I couldn't care less. There are plenty of other things that could be done. How about a suspension, or at least an actual investigation of Ankiel? But hey, don't let that stop you from acting like a dick. come on, a suspension? you're asking for a guy to be suspended now because there's a rumor that he received hgh, which wasn't illegal, three years ago? give a me break. that's ridiculous. if this was a cub player and cardinal message boards were calling for his suspension, we'd all be quoting them here and having a great laugh. The "Natural" received a 12 month supply of HGH just before MLB outlawed it. Do you really think he didn't use any of that supply after HGH was banned from baseball? At a minimum, Blind Eye Bud should conduct an investigation.

His ERA is over 4 in one of those seasons. I don't think he's worth 5.3. But he's here already and is the best candidate to close. Just watched the highlights of the 9th this morning. It's hard to get pissed at Dempster. The first guy hit an outside pitch the other way. The 2nd at bat should have been a double play, and at the very least, a fielders choice. The homerun was a pop-up that floated into the basket. There's really no reason for people to get all pissy about Dempster. He's far from great, but he's been fine this year, and he's been fine throughout the majority of his time on the Cubs. His cumulative ERA over the last four years is over 4 which is not good. No, it's not good, but it's also not nearly as meaningful as the individual seasons, in which 3 of 4 were good. Just like Jacque Jones and his last 4 seasons of 90, 99, 107 and 78 OPS+ aren't any good, even if the 2006 season was pretty good and props up the rest. If one season is the outlier, and great affects the average, it's less meaningful. DLee is probably a better example, at 114, 177, 111 and 126. His tenure as a Cub may be more like a 140 OPS+, but he's been nowhere near that most of the time. I disagree that the seasons with the 3.92 and 3.88 are "good seasons" for a NL pitcher rather that the 3.13 ERA in the 2005 season was the outlier. IMO Dempster has had one good/career season in the last four years for which (in typical Hendry fashion) he was overpaid for.

His ERA is over 4 in one of those seasons. I don't think he's worth 5.3. But he's here already and is the best candidate to close. Just watched the highlights of the 9th this morning. It's hard to get pissed at Dempster. The first guy hit an outside pitch the other way. The 2nd at bat should have been a double play, and at the very least, a fielders choice. The homerun was a pop-up that floated into the basket. There's really no reason for people to get all pissy about Dempster. He's far from great, but he's been fine this year, and he's been fine throughout the majority of his time on the Cubs. His cumulative ERA over the last four years is over 4 which is not good.

Now maybe the St. Louis media can look into how Roger Clemens gets away with "staying" young. Clemens' production the last few years has made me raise an eyebrow. Sad thing is I'm also getting weird feelings about Nolan Ryan and his stats. :( As do I. I really don't think it was just advil that helped him. Anyone who does well past 36 years old (Clemens, Ryan) or their numbers jump up (D Lee) is now suspect. Very sad. D Lee isn't that old. Many players like Pujols, Helton, and others have been accused of taking this stuff too and I'm curious to see if there is smoke, maybe there's some fire to this. Let's face it, the vets know how and where to get the good stuff and how to keep it quiet. I never said he was old. I said his numbers jumped appreciably in one year. Anyone is now suspect of juicing when that happens. Why, just because a Cardinal got caught?

Papelbon - 1.61 ERA, 75 K/15 walks, .77 WHIP Dempster - 3.88 ERA, 48K/27 walks, 1.28 WHIP. But hey, at least his performance in situations arbitrarily defined by a meaningless statistic is only marginally worse than Papelbons! (Also, let's not mention the two tie games he entered and singlehandedly let get out of reach) Excellent points made comparing Dempster to a real closer. Saves are a meaningless statistic For the 2006 and 2007 seasons combined Dempster's ERA is close to 4.50. That's horrible for a so-called closer. So you'll stack up his pretty bad 2006 season with his decent 2007 season, but totally leave out his excellent 2005 season? How does that work? Dempster ERAs 2004 - 3.92, 2005 - 3.13, 2006 - 4.80, 2007 - 3.88 Over the last four years, Demspter's ERA is over 4. Yeah, he's worth $5.3 million a year. :roll:

Would you expect any less from fans that turned a blind eye to LaRusa's drunken binge, the drug use of Hancock and Spiezo and who dubbed Rick Ankiel "The Natural." Yeah, he's about as Natural as Pamela Anderson's boobs. :roll:

So much for the feel good story of 2007. The cheater should be investigated now. If the Cardinal organization had an ounce of integrity, they would do it now.

Papelbon - 1.61 ERA, 75 K/15 walks, .77 WHIP Dempster - 3.88 ERA, 48K/27 walks, 1.28 WHIP. But hey, at least his performance in situations arbitrarily defined by a meaningless statistic is only marginally worse than Papelbons! (Also, let's not mention the two tie games he entered and singlehandedly let get out of reach) Excellent points made comparing Dempster to a real closer. Saves are a meaningless statistic For the 2006 and 2007 seasons combined Dempster's ERA is close to 4.50. That's horrible for a so-called closer.

Yep, he's done a good job this year. Now it's up to his teammates to pick him up and score some runs in the 9th. Dempster - ERA after today 3.5+. SOs/IPs = 48/55 Marmol ERA 1.45. 77/56 Saves are misleading. Dempster gets hit hard and doesn't strike out enough guys to be a good closer which is why he is constantly in trouble even when he does get lucky saves. While I completely agree that saves are misleading, to say that Dempster gets hit hard is inaccurate. Coming into this game, opponent have put up a line of .197/.296/.275 against Dempster this season. Lets compare his ERA to others in the weak Central division. Marmol - 1.45 Izzy - 1.77 Lidge - 2.97 Cordero - 2.96 Eventually all those line smashes against him start to fall in. His ERA is out of whack with his other numbers. If anything, Dempster has been unlucky this season. Opponents aren't hitting for average or power against him. His control could be better, but you were wrong in saying he's been hit hard this year. If you want to say he's been hit hard by the Mets, that would be accurate. Hell, if you take away those two horrible games, his ERA would have been 1.84 coming into today. In your opinion, if a pitcher gives up three line smashes right at someone and gets three outs was he hit hard?

The Cardinals are charging, I know that. Look who their playing? St. Louis still has the hardest schedule of the three teams. Don't worry...We'll be fine! Isn't that what Edward J. Smith said just before his boat hit that little iceberg?

The Brewers' next ten games are against the Pirates and Reds. This season is OVER. Yeah, all of our remaining games against the Pirates and Reds will make it impossible to beat them. Oh, and I forgot the Brewers great road record too...Man, we're toast! I'm a little more concerned about the four games in St. louis and the Cardinals than the Brewers.

Yep, he's done a good job this year. Now it's up to his teammates to pick him up and score some runs in the 9th. Dempster - ERA after today 3.5+. SOs/IPs = 48/55 Marmol ERA 1.45. 77/56 Saves are misleading. Dempster gets hit hard and doesn't strike out enough guys to be a good closer which is why he is constantly in trouble even when he does get lucky saves. While I completely agree that saves are misleading, to say that Dempster gets hit hard is inaccurate. Coming into this game, opponent have put up a line of .197/.296/.275 against Dempster this season. Lets compare his ERA to others in the weak Central division. Marmol - 1.45 Izzy - 1.77 Lidge - 2.97 Cordero - 2.96 Eventually all those line smashes against him start to fall in.

Yep, he's done a good job this year. Now it's up to his teammates to pick him up and score some runs in the 9th. Dempster - ERA after today 3.5+. SOs/IPs = 48/55 Marmol ERA 1.45. 77/56 Saves are misleading. Dempster gets hit hard and doesn't strike out enough guys to be a good closer which is why he is constantly in trouble even when he does get lucky saves. Lucky saves? Is this a stat? :roll: Yes, 25 saves with a 3.5 ERA.