nick23

I find it funny that you argue for Giles over Furcal because Furcal is past his prime. The difference is that Furcal was never great at his prime. His price is being driven up by the hype surrounding the theory that he is the best young position player in free agency. He's past his prime, but his prime wasn't all that special. Giles was an absolute stud in his prime, and still brings far more to the table now than Furcal. Furcal's unspectacular production (750 OPS) is being glossed over because of his defense and position. But I know one thing, adding a 750 OPS to this lineup isn't going to do much to solve the team's immense offensive woes, especially when the cost of adding that 750 OPS will likely force the Cubs to once again go mediocre, or worse, in the biggest need position on the team, RF. Giles, far and away, adds greater improvement to this team than Furcal does. The Cubs were 10th in the NL last year in SS production, and were just 011 points of OPS from being 6th in the NL. On the other hand, they ranked 15th in OPS from RF last year, and were 050 points from cracking the top 10, 077 from the top 6. Cedeno could easily provide them a chance to be at least average at SS next year. They have no similar fallback option for RF, and based on the many rumored names, they are likely to get no better than minimal improvement from the disaster that was Burnitz. The fact is they can afford to get both Furcal and Giles, and I'd be ecstatic if they did. But if there is only a chance for one, there is no debate that Giles would be the more helpful acquisition. But what was the cubs OPS from SS last year? Sure adding a 750 OPS doesn't sound like a big deal but I"m assuming Neifi's OPS wasn't even approaching 700. Well now you're talking about a major improvement. Giles would definitely be a huge upgrade but for some reason Hendry sounds like he's looking to improve RF through trade. And I don't know if I disagree with him. Like I said in an earlier post I'd rather wrap up Furcal now and then explore my options in right, rather than pass on Furcal and just hope Giles signs with us. I can just see that approach ending in disaster. Much like last year's offseason. Is there a reason to assume the Cubs can't sign Giles before Furcal signs somewhere? Just that it helps my argument.

I find it funny that you argue for Giles over Furcal because Furcal is past his prime. The difference is that Furcal was never great at his prime. His price is being driven up by the hype surrounding the theory that he is the best young position player in free agency. He's past his prime, but his prime wasn't all that special. Giles was an absolute stud in his prime, and still brings far more to the table now than Furcal. Furcal's unspectacular production (750 OPS) is being glossed over because of his defense and position. But I know one thing, adding a 750 OPS to this lineup isn't going to do much to solve the team's immense offensive woes, especially when the cost of adding that 750 OPS will likely force the Cubs to once again go mediocre, or worse, in the biggest need position on the team, RF. Giles, far and away, adds greater improvement to this team than Furcal does. The Cubs were 10th in the NL last year in SS production, and were just 011 points of OPS from being 6th in the NL. On the other hand, they ranked 15th in OPS from RF last year, and were 050 points from cracking the top 10, 077 from the top 6. Cedeno could easily provide them a chance to be at least average at SS next year. They have no similar fallback option for RF, and based on the many rumored names, they are likely to get no better than minimal improvement from the disaster that was Burnitz. The fact is they can afford to get both Furcal and Giles, and I'd be ecstatic if they did. But if there is only a chance for one, there is no debate that Giles would be the more helpful acquisition. But what was the cubs OPS from SS last year? Sure adding a 750 OPS doesn't sound like a big deal but I"m assuming Neifi's OPS wasn't even approaching 700. Well now you're talking about a major improvement. Giles would definitely be a huge upgrade but for some reason Hendry sounds like he's looking to improve RF through trade. And I don't know if I disagree with him. Like I said in an earlier post I'd rather wrap up Furcal now and then explore my options in right, rather than pass on Furcal and just hope Giles signs with us. I can just see that approach ending in disaster. Much like last year's offseason.

I find it funny that you argue for Giles over Furcal because Furcal is past his prime.

If you're that concerned about Ronny's production then moving him from short to second makes even less sense. The replacement level for offense from a second baseman is higher than it would be from a shortstop. If we're serious about giving him a shot, it makes the most sense to do it as a shortstop, where he has the most value. You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not concerned about his production. I was saying that i'd bet on it being easier for Cedeno to move from short to second than it would be for him to hit .300/.356. And I don't see why he has any more value at SS than he does 2nd. I don't believe in this nonsense that offense has to come from specific positions. It's absurd.[/quote So a C should be as offensively valuable as a RF? Go ahead and look up the stats. it's not even close. That's not what I said. I said offense doesn't have to come from certain positions.

If you're that concerned about Ronny's production then moving him from short to second makes even less sense. The replacement level for offense from a second baseman is higher than it would be from a shortstop. If we're serious about giving him a shot, it makes the most sense to do it as a shortstop, where he has the most value. You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not concerned about his production. I was saying that i'd bet on it being easier for Cedeno to move from short to second than it would be for him to hit .300/.356. And I don't see why he has any more value at SS than he does 2nd. I don't believe in this nonsense that offense has to come from certain positions. It's absurd.

Why is the Cedeno concern unreasonable? The Cubs saw something about him at age 20 that made them want to protect him on the 40 man roster. Last year, he hit: .355/.403/.518 at AAA .300/.356/.375 at Chicago Granted, the at bats in Chicago were a small sampling, but what if he really is a .300/.356 type hitter? With Nomar coming back for 1 more year, we have the opportunity to get a better look at Cedeno and find out. With Furcal signed for at least 4 years, Cedeno doesn't get that opportunity. Cedeno is a SS, not a 2b. Maybe he can make the transition, maybe he can't. Cedeno at SS leaves the door open for Giles. Furcal probably doesn't. RF is the biggest position of need, IMO, just ahead of the need for a lead off hitter. If the Cubs trade for Pierre, lead off is addressed, but RF is still a black hole. If Cedeno is the real deal, he's wasted as a back up if we do get Furcal. I'd rather gamble on Cedeno making the transition from SS to 2b, than gamble on him hitting .300/.356. We all know that this team needs a power bat in right. Well, we also need a SS and a leadoff hitter. Furcal fits in perfectly on this team. I don't want to pass on Furcal then try all offseason to sign Giles, only to watch him sign somewhere else. IMO that would be a lot more damaging than signing Furcal and possibly losing out on Giles.

This is some of the worst reasoning I've ever heard. Resign Nomar because he has unfinished business in Chicago? Is this unfinished business going to hold his groin and hamstring together? And then don't sign Furcal because a couple of guys last year who signed big contracts got hurt. Also, assume we sign Nomar and he stays healthy. By reaching his incintives isn't he going to cost almost as much as Furcal? Is all of it the worst reasoning you've ever heard? Or just the part you singled out? I did say that I wasn't against signing Furcal. But, I do have reservations. The length of the contract, the cost (in comparison to what similar production might cost). Not every long term free agent signing last year was hurt. Beltre and Beltran come to mind. My personal opinion is that Nomar still has the capacity to play a healthy season. Furcal is no guarantee to come here. I think if we miss out on Furcal, we may come to regret not bringing Nomar back, especially if he has a good, healthy year somewhere else. As far as your bring back Nomar reasons, 1-5 were worthless reasons. The Furcal concerns 1,2, and 4 were bad reasons not to sign him. As far as your recent post, I also think Nomar has the capability to play a healthy season. I just don't trust him to do so. I want the sure thing. Furcal to me is the sure thing.

This is some of the worst reasoning I've ever heard. Resign Nomar because he has unfinished business in Chicago? Is this unfinished business going to hold his groin and hamstring together? And then don't sign Furcal because a couple of guys last year who signed big contracts got hurt. Also, assume we sign Nomar and he stays healthy. By reaching his incintives isn't he going to cost almost as much as Furcal?

:D That's how I see it too! The only part your missing is when Kinzer has to be reminded who Perez is. I just completely laughed out loud while sitting at my desk. I hate when people do that.

What evidence do you have that says his defense is not that good? And I wonder if you asked Bobby Cox if Furcal is a difference maker what he would say? The guy has only played SS and batted leadoff for a division winner every year he's been in the league. I'd be willing to bet he's making a difference somewhere.

I would like to go on record and say that if Furcal signs with the Cubs the ire on this board over his baseball performance will rival if not exceed that of Neifi F. Perez. I desagree with that. What aspect of his game do you think will draw the most ire? His offensive production, especially considering the amount of money he'll make. Once again, I completely disagree. I think his offensive production will be just fine next year. He's a very productive offensive SS. Then throw his exellent defense on top of that and I'd be more than happy giving him his market value for the next 4 years. Especially considering the garbage we've trotted out at SS over the last 10 years.

I would like to go on record and say that if Furcal signs with the Cubs the ire on this board over his baseball performance will rival if not exceed that of Neifi F. Perez. I desagree with that. What aspect of his game do you think will draw the most ire?

I could be wrong, but hadn't Cedeno broke into the starting lineup before his injury last year? Cedeno got consecutive starts twice last year. I don't consider that breaking into the everyday lineup. True, but right before the injury in a stretch of 11 games he started 7 of them. I do consider that breaking into the lineup. At least I'd be happy with that for next year.

I could be wrong, but hadn't Cedeno broke into the starting lineup before his injury last year?

But if we sign Furcal, you're not going to sub for him late in games. And if we have Cedeno playing second, I'm not sure if Neifi is better defensively than him. It's just so frustrating.

I can't even begin to describe how frustrating that line is after today's signing.

I disagree. What the Cardinals do this offseason has no effect on our success next season. As long as we improve in the areas that need improving we'll be fine. My ideal offseason would be trade for Huff, sign Furcal, and improve the bullpen. I'm fine with the rotation the way it is. Williams is a good 5th starter imo. Furcal Walker Lee Aramis Huff Murton Barret Corey With an improved bullpen, we can make the playoffs with that team. Regardless of what the Cards do.

The same way guys like Piazza and Grace went really low. Scouting is an inexact science. Some would say it is not a science at all but an art. There was a good article about Pujols in last week's ESPN the magizine. He was a little pudgy comming out of junior college and I think he had a bad senior year. The article made it seem like he is an even better person than a ball player. It is hard not to like the guy. In all of sports the worst I've ever seen is Dan Marino going in the fifth or six round. Marino went in the first round. It was just late in the first round.

It only makes sense if you ignore some pretty strong evidence indicating he can't maintain this performance, though. wasnt there also some pretty strong evidence that dempster couldn't close games because he walked too many & didnt have enough strike outs? I don't know about that, I was supporting Dempster as closer since 2004. I compared him favorably to Isringhausen, and his transformation from an inconsistent and unimpressive starter coming off surgery to a good, but not great closer. Some people just made the general statement that he walks too many to close. You can lump me into the crowd of people who wouldn't have much faith in Lofton, but I was all for Dempster, and I don't see a correlation between the two situations. i guess my point is that its all a guessing game. why couldnt lofton have a good year next year? his game is based on speed and he doesn't seem to be slowing down much. as far as dempster, i seem to recall an article on the front page outlining why dempster was a ? mark because of his high walks & low strike out totals but he seems to have taken to closing just fine. i also remember that alot of people here were talking down about getting eckstein to play ss and laughed when the sox traded for posednick. if someone would have said at the start of the season that eckstein & scott p would outproduce nomar & cp they would have been lynched. I'm still laughing that the Sox traded for Podsednik. That was a horrible trade IMO.

All that matters is how many runs they score and they rank 6th in the NL. Whereas their ERA is ranked 10th. Hmmmmm, guess the hitting is the main culprit. Just a little factoid, in 2003 the Cubs ranked 3rd in ERA and 9th in runs scored. So contrary to popular belief the offense has got better. See this is where I desagree. Runs scored mean nothing if you score 8 runs on one day and 2 runs the next. This team cannot consistently score runs day in and day out. Basically, at the end of the season just looking at runs scored isn't goint to tell you much at all.

Not re-signing Alou wasn't a mistake. Replacing him with Todd Hollandsworth was. But I thought not signing Alou was going to be addition by subtraction? Therefore it really shouldn't have mattered who we got to play left.

No, those are not the complete choices I listed. You left some important stuff out. I originally wrote the following: 1) Zito, Furcal, Pie in CF, and losing several valuable minor leaguers(to get Zito). or 2) Burnett, Cedeno at SS, stopgap CF, retaining all valuable minor leaguers. Right. Like I said no mention of Giles. Why would I mention Giles in the original post? He's an RF. I was comparing Hoop's package of SP, SS, and CF to my plan for those positions. RF is a different matter. For some reason you implied I wanted Klesko in RF, so I felt compelled to mention that that was not the case. My original post didn't cover RF. We're talking in circles here. Anyway, I was just responding to your original post by saying I would rather have Zito, Furcal, and Patterson, than Burnett, Cedeno, and a stopgap CF. I think Patterson is outta here. We are less than one year away from Pie taking over in CF and the whole organization just seems disenchanted with Corey. What I hope to see is Corey do great in winter ball, which should restore some of his trade value. Well I hope not. I would hate to see us repeat last offseason's mistakes and trade away talent for not much in return.

I'm assuming not bad. He went 2 for 4 with a homer last night.

No, those are not the complete choices I listed. You left some important stuff out. I originally wrote the following: 1) Zito, Furcal, Pie in CF, and losing several valuable minor leaguers(to get Zito). or 2) Burnett, Cedeno at SS, stopgap CF, retaining all valuable minor leaguers. Right. Like I said no mention of Giles. Why would I mention Giles in the original post? He's an RF. I was comparing Hoop's package of SP, SS, and CF to my plan for those positions. RF is a different matter. For some reason you implied I wanted Klesko in RF, so I felt compelled to mention that that was not the case. My original post didn't cover RF. We're talking in circles here. Anyway, I was just responding to your original post by saying I would rather have Zito, Furcal, and Patterson, than Burnett, Cedeno, and a stopgap CF.

Now that's just ridiculous. Walker is more than capable of hitting leadoff. And he's more than capable of reaching home with less than 3 hits after him. That's just absurd talk that completely belittles the rest of your message. I'm not impressed with Furcal because he's not very good. He's fine, but he's no $8 million difference maker. He's a career .346 OBP player, and that's acceptable, but hardly impressive. He's also got a drinking problem, that, unlike Kyle Farnsworth, has actually gotten him in serious legal trouble. If Furcal is your primary offensive improvement in the offseason, you will still be severaly lacking on offense. The OF must be addressed. The Cubs have options at SS, but they don't have anything for the OF. I agree with Goony here. We have to look at how much value we are getting for what price. Is there a huge difference between Cedeno and Furcal...at least a 7.5M dollar difference? what I look at is Burnitz could make 7 mil next year if we pick up his option. Whereas Giles could make around 10.5 or 11. I think that extra 4 mil is worth way more than giving 7.5 mil more for a SS. We just need to be smart with the money we are paying... The Cubs attention needs to be primarily focused on the OF and bullpen imo. We need a more productive bat in RF and we need to decide if we are going to keep Murton or explore a trade for a more productive LF. Listen, I think Giles is a great player. And I will not be upset if he is in our outfield next year. I just don't want to pass on Furcal just because we have Cedeno. No one knows how good of a player Cedeno is going to be. Furcal is a very good SS and a good leadoff option. I think he would improve this team so much.