8654

So who do we want to waste money on? I don't know of any options that wouldn't equate to wasting money except to stand pat or promote from within. Lou & JH seem intent on not using Hoff or Font or any other current Cub in RF. Seems to me we will waste money on somebody. Like I said, please tell me if you've heard any other names mentioned or have any other ideas. And if we want Peavy, we absolutely have to move Marquis. No way around it. Moving him will mean taking on somebody else's contract because of the economy. The only place to take on a contract is RF or the pen. If we trade Marquis for a reliever, we still can't get Peavy because we still have to sign 1 of these bottom-of-the-barrell FA RF's. What it all comes down to is that if we want Peavy, we will have to settle for a less than spectacular RF via trade. Do you want Teahen? I don't. What other RF are available via trade? I threw Winn out there because he is in his last year of contract and SF isn't gonna go anywhere with him in RF. WE, on the other hand, COULD win with him because the rest of our team is pretty darn good, especially if we have a rotation of Peavy, Demp, Z, Harden & Lilly and a CF of Dome and Reed (& possibly Pie) to make up for the defense of Soriano & Winn. I want Peavy. I have no idea who I would realistically want, because there is no way of me knowing who is avilable. I'm not a GM and I can't talk to other GMs. All I know if that Winn is a lateral move and is not really an upgrade over what we have. Like I said, I'd rather see what Fontenot could do over a full season and put DeRosa in right than pay Winn 8.5 million to put up a .780 OPS. Also, I don't really see what Peavy has to do with this. Winn makes 8.25 million next year. I'd imagine guys like Ibanez and Abreu (who I don't want by the way, but you keep mentioning their names) will get around 10 mil. Is that extra 2 mil or so really going to cost us Peavy? If anything, I'd think you'd NOT want Winn if you think payroll issues will affect getting Peavy. That's 8.25 million spent on a .790 OPS when we could already get that out of Fontenot. The bottom line is that Winn is not very good. If he was making like 2 million next year and we could have him for dirt cheap, then maybe. But 8.25 million? That's a big waste of the rest of our already tight budget. I like the idea of Font playing full time also. Problem is the rumor that Dero would refuse to play RF except occasionally. He signed with us in conjunction with a gentlemen's promise w/ JH to be our full-time 2B. Maybe Font is athletic enough to learn to play RF. I sure would like to find out. I'd rather stay in-house until we see how Dome responds this year, especially if it means allocating resources toward Peavy instead of RF. For all we know, Dome's light bulb could go on & could have an MVP season this year. Also, sure would blow to sign 1 of these FA RF for 3 years when Vlad will be a FA next year. As far as the salary thing with signing/trading for a RF, you are only adding just $2 mil ONLY IF you simultaneously unload Marquis' contract. If you can't trade Marquis, you are adding the entire salary of the RF. If we don't get Peavy, we pretty much have to keep Marquis, wouldn't you agree? Then we are paying Marquis PLUS the RF. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure we can't afford Peavy, Marquis and an $8 - $10 mil RF. So yes, if my understanding of the '09 budget is correct, we have to unload Marquis if we want Peavy (we also need the roster spot). Do you think any team is going to take on his contract w/out giving us a similar one in return? It would effectively be moving 1 bad contract for an average player from the rotation to RF instead of having 2 bad contracts (Marquis AND a RF - like Abreu for 3yrs x $9 mil). It's possible that we could trade Marquis & pick up almost 1/2 of his contract, like is the current rumor, but would it still be possible to bring on Peavy and a RF other than Teahen (which would mean bye-bye Font)? I'm not saying Winn is my first choice for RF. I'm saying trading Marquis for someone like Winn would facilitate the Peavy trade and provide an adequate stop-gap in RF for 1 year until something better comes along or until Dome figures things out. I'd much rather do that instead of be stuck with the alternatives & maybe not get Peavy. The way I see it, there are no good external options for RF at this time, but you have to take off the RF blinders & look at the big picture of the entire team & how making one move will affect everything else. And I keep saying certain names because those are the apparent options on the table. Just cause we don't like those options don't mean they aren't the options. I'm not going to ignore them just cause I don't like them. I'm trying to think of other options & weigh them against the current ones. That's what this thread was meant to be about. What is the lesser of the evils? Not true. Him signing with us with the understanding that he would be our full-time 2B is fact. This was well documented in the media at the time - by Dero AND Hendry. He chose us over other teams because JH promised him 2B, just like Dome chose us because JH promised him RF while other teams wanted him in CF. So far Dome hasn't live up to his end of the deal, Dero has. The rumor of him refusing RF full-time may or may not be true - hence the term RUMOR. I think most of us would be fine w/ Font @ 2B & Dero in RF. That is easily the best course of action available to us (considering all angles of the options available). That LH RF bat they want just doesn't seem to be there. So why does Font/Dero not seem to be an option as far as Lou & JH are concerned? Could that rumor POSSIBLY be true? There's probably about 5 people who know that for sure & neither you nor me are 1 of them.

So who do we want to waste money on? I don't know of any options that wouldn't equate to wasting money except to stand pat or promote from within. Lou & JH seem intent on not using Hoff or Font or any other current Cub in RF. Seems to me we will waste money on somebody. Like I said, please tell me if you've heard any other names mentioned or have any other ideas. And if we want Peavy, we absolutely have to move Marquis. No way around it. Moving him will mean taking on somebody else's contract because of the economy. The only place to take on a contract is RF or the pen. If we trade Marquis for a reliever, we still can't get Peavy because we still have to sign 1 of these bottom-of-the-barrell FA RF's. What it all comes down to is that if we want Peavy, we will have to settle for a less than spectacular RF via trade. Do you want Teahen? I don't. What other RF are available via trade? I threw Winn out there because he is in his last year of contract and SF isn't gonna go anywhere with him in RF. WE, on the other hand, COULD win with him because the rest of our team is pretty darn good, especially if we have a rotation of Peavy, Demp, Z, Harden & Lilly and a CF of Dome and Reed (& possibly Pie) to make up for the defense of Soriano & Winn. I want Peavy. I have no idea who I would realistically want, because there is no way of me knowing who is avilable. I'm not a GM and I can't talk to other GMs. All I know if that Winn is a lateral move and is not really an upgrade over what we have. Like I said, I'd rather see what Fontenot could do over a full season and put DeRosa in right than pay Winn 8.5 million to put up a .780 OPS. Also, I don't really see what Peavy has to do with this. Winn makes 8.25 million next year. I'd imagine guys like Ibanez and Abreu (who I don't want by the way, but you keep mentioning their names) will get around 10 mil. Is that extra 2 mil or so really going to cost us Peavy? If anything, I'd think you'd NOT want Winn if you think payroll issues will affect getting Peavy. That's 8.25 million spent on a .790 OPS when we could already get that out of Fontenot. The bottom line is that Winn is not very good. If he was making like 2 million next year and we could have him for dirt cheap, then maybe. But 8.25 million? That's a big waste of the rest of our already tight budget. I like the idea of Font playing full time also. Problem is the rumor that Dero would refuse to play RF except occasionally. He signed with us in conjunction with a gentlemen's promise w/ JH to be our full-time 2B. Maybe Font is athletic enough to learn to play RF. I sure would like to find out. I'd rather stay in-house until we see how Dome responds this year, especially if it means allocating resources toward Peavy instead of RF. For all we know, Dome's light bulb could go on & could have an MVP season this year. Also, sure would blow to sign 1 of these FA RF for 3 years when Vlad will be a FA next year. As far as the salary thing with signing/trading for a RF, you are only adding just $2 mil ONLY IF you simultaneously unload Marquis' contract. If you can't trade Marquis, you are adding the entire salary of the RF. If we don't get Peavy, we pretty much have to keep Marquis, wouldn't you agree? Then we are paying Marquis PLUS the RF. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure we can't afford Peavy, Marquis and an $8 - $10 mil RF. So yes, if my understanding of the '09 budget is correct, we have to unload Marquis if we want Peavy (we also need the roster spot). Do you think any team is going to take on his contract w/out giving us a similar one in return? It would effectively be moving 1 bad contract for an average player from the rotation to RF instead of having 2 bad contracts (Marquis AND a RF - like Abreu for 3yrs x $9 mil). It's possible that we could trade Marquis & pick up almost 1/2 of his contract, like is the current rumor, but would it still be possible to bring on Peavy and a RF other than Teahen (which would mean bye-bye Font)? I'm not saying Winn is my first choice for RF. I'm saying trading Marquis for someone like Winn would facilitate the Peavy trade and provide an adequate stop-gap in RF for 1 year until something better comes along or until Dome figures things out. I'd much rather do that instead of be stuck with the alternatives & maybe not get Peavy. The way I see it, there are no good external options for RF at this time, but you have to take off the RF blinders & look at the big picture of the entire team & how making one move will affect everything else. And I keep saying certain names because those are the apparent options on the table. Just cause we don't like those options don't mean they aren't the options. I'm not going to ignore them just cause I don't like them. I'm trying to think of other options & weigh them against the current ones. That's what this thread was meant to be about. What is the lesser of the evils?

Putz will get what he's due to be paid in 2009 ($5 mil), most likely, since he's not a free agent. Yeah, I don't know why I wrote Putz. I was thinking Hoffman. Sorry.

Absolutely zero chance Kerry Wood signs for 4.5m Don't be so sure of that. The economy and a market flooded with closers combined with only a few teams needing a closer should drive down the cost. Additionally, Wood said he wants to be a Cub but for more than 1 year. How much do you think he will get with his injury riddled past, including last year? Nobody can sign Wood as their closer w/out a legit Plan B (i.e. Marmol). How much you think KRod, Hoffman & Fuentes will get? They surely will get more than Wood. I think you have overvalued Wood at least, if not the entire market.

Maybe JD Drew has fallen out of favor in Boston this winter. Maybe Ichiro's rumored attitude has grown old in Seattle. Maybe LA has finally decided to let Willits go to a team where he can play everyday.

If we save $9 mil by staying in-house, we could split it for a 2 year $4.5 mil deal for Wood. Then everybody's happy.

Font started out rippin the cover off the ball in 07. Then he slumped. Last year he hit well again. I think he will be fine. The only ? about Derosa should be if his power stay. If we don't spend any $$$ for an OF (go w/ an in-house option), then $$$ won't be an issue in trading for Peavy. If we can have Peavy starting and Wood with Marmol, Shark, Gregg and Weurtz in the pen, I'll take the chance that we have a little drop off offensively.

So who do we want to waste money on? I don't know of any options that wouldn't equate to wasting money except to stand pat or promote from within. Lou & JH seem intent on not using Hoff or Font or any other current Cub in RF. Seems to me we will waste money on somebody. Like I said, please tell me if you've heard any other names mentioned or have any other ideas. And if we want Peavy, we absolutely have to move Marquis. No way around it. Moving him will mean taking on somebody else's contract because of the economy. The only place to take on a contract is RF or the pen. If we trade Marquis for a reliever, we still can't get Peavy because we still have to sign 1 of these bottom-of-the-barrell FA RF's. What it all comes down to is that if we want Peavy, we will have to settle for a less than spectacular RF via trade. Do you want Teahen? I don't. What other RF are available via trade? I threw Winn out there because he is in his last year of contract and SF isn't gonna go anywhere with him in RF. WE, on the other hand, COULD win with him because the rest of our team is pretty darn good, especially if we have a rotation of Peavy, Demp, Z, Harden & Lilly and a CF of Dome and Reed (& possibly Pie) to make up for the defense of Soriano & Winn. I want Peavy.

Yeah, the perennial playoff appearances, the championships, the good ol days... Don't forget spending top dollar to retain our best players like Greg Maddux. Honestly, that's maybe the one thing the Trib did well. Outside of Maddux, did they ever lose another player that they wanted to hold on to? I think he was the only one. The Maddux debacle was all Himes. The money was there, Himes let Maddux walk out of spite because he didn't like Maddux and his agent acting so presumptious by giving him a deadline on when to have their offer in, so he let the deadline pass and sent him the offer the next day to show them who was boss. Himes should have been publicly lynched over that one. Problem now is Lou won't PLAY the guys he don't (personally) like. My 2 issues w/ new oh-no-ship: 1. Does anybody want a couple NY'ers owning the Cubs? 2. The other 2 bidders I heard of are in, if I remember correctly, the finance and real estate related sectors - I'm not sure that is the way to go these days. I'm scared . . . of the new ownership cutting the payroll in 1/2 & not caring about the success of the team. The Trib may have been inept, but at least it seemed as though they wanted to win.

Even if trading his salary for Marquis' and one or 2 others' (i.e. Cedeno and Gaudin or Weurtz) would mean we don't have to spend $10 mil on some marginally better FA for 3 - 4 years, like Abreu or Ibanez (and lose draft picks)? To pay one of their salaries in addition to Marquis'? And maybe have to just release Gaudin? And definitely not get Peavy? Lou & JH are set on acquiring a LH RF who has proven he can hit MLB pitching - the question is who? It doesn't seem as if Hoff or Font are candidates. That leaves the names mentioned above as far as I know. I think I'd rather take a chance with Winn and Peavy instead of Marquis & Ibanez (or Abreu or Teahen) - call me crazy. Remember that we're only talking about 1 season with him vs. 3 - 4 with Ibanez or Abreu, but we are also talking about having the best rotation in MLB for at least the next 2 years.

runs/rbis are a terrible way to evaluate a player's worth. they are a team stat based on lineup positioning. Uh . . . yeah, I think that's the basic concept of what I said . . . maybe I should be clearer next time? You know . . . leading off & on an aweful team . . . did that not show up on your monitor? why do you keep comparing him to those guys? those aren't the only options. it's not like we have to get one of those guys. i wouldn't want any of those guys with the price they'll come at. winn is not good defensively, so that's what we should be saying. we shouldn't be congratulating him for being slightly better than other crappy defenders. Uh . . . {scratching head now] . . . I compared them ONCE. I did so while addressing another poster who said Winn wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to show that there apparently isn't much out there that WOULD be much of an upgrade. Those players are the players who have been id'ed as possible targets of JH for RF. To the best of MY knowledge, no other names have been mentioned. Have you heard something I haven't? I did ask you who YOU would pick to play RF . . . [waiting, waiting . . . waiting, waiting, waiting . . . ] my point is that winn is not that good. we're already really tight with payroll and we want to add 8.25 million for a guy who put up the following ops numbers over his career? READ the post . . . it would be a push financially. It's not ADDING payroll. It's EXCHANGING payroll & freeing up roster space. It's making it possible to add PEAVY's salary instead of using the money on some other slug FA RF. Do you understand this concept? Unload expendable dead weight, receive a serviceable need & use the earmarked $$$$$ from that NEED to pay for a LUXURY. Doesn't take that much G2 to get this concept. Winn may not be the best RF in the game, but he is ENOUGH to have for ONE YEAR in order to facilitate the Peavy trade. Then, possibly upgrade via trade at mid-season or via the NEXT free agent market (or from within). Or, we could sign an overpriced, negligibly better FA for 3 - 4 years ,NOT have any chance of affording Peavy & fuming about it for the next 3 - 4 years while we complain that JH is stupid because he didn't get Peavy. Is THAT more your speed? san fransisco isn't really a pitcher's park http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2008 I haven't checked your link, but I would guess that if you compared the overall ratings of NL West parks vs. NL Central parks, there would be a bit of a difference in favor of pitchers in the NL West. I could be wrong, but . . . winn caeer- .288 .347 .425 .771 winn career w/risp- .282 .350 .415 .765 he's actually slightly worse with risp. You talk about cherry-picking stats, but then you go and combine his entire career stats to say that he ain't that good. I don't give a sheet what he did 10 years ago in Seattle . . . I care about what he is capable of NOW. not well. soriano "can" player anywhere in the of too Soriano also plays the TRAINER'S TABLE well. How 'bout this . . . Dome in RF, Reed in CF, Soriano on DL & Winn in LF . . . sounds like a pretty reasonable expectation if we did get Winn. anyone can. it's been shown that lineup contruction is close to meaningless. there are tools where you can check that out. Ahem . . . Soriano . . .just for ONE c.i.p. And why don't we just move the pitcher's spot up to #3 while we're at it. Then, slide ARam into the 2 hole. Theriot hits 4th. Let's see how well that lineup does. You look at all your generic mumbo jumbo discombobulated garbage manipulated by some bookworm to make a name for himself and prove an irrelevant point by lumping all players into 1 being, as what becomes the most mathematically flawed concept of an AVERAGE - I'll look at REAL LIFE examples. And I don't need to check it out . . . YOU are the only tool for me. winn career day games- .270 .338 .386 .724 winn career night games- .296 .350 .442 .792 so he's actually significantly worse in day games. i don't know why that matters anyways. Same thing - he isn't exactly the same player he was 10 years ago. b) even last year (the year you're referencing), you just cherry picked OBP and ignored his other stats. he had a high obp, but you left out that he had a .389 slugging percentage (.446 at night). his ops was 25 points lower in day games. again, it doesn't matter, but your argument wasn't even correct. You value power. I value getting on base, keeping an inning going, taking pitches to make the pitcher work, making contact to make the defense work, running fast and hard every time, knowing that you don't have to win the game in 1 swing because you have guys like Soto and Dero coming up next, striking out less than 10% of AB. I don't care about things like OPS as much as you do. I'm tired of relying on the HR or the 1 big hit. I'll take a team of Ichiro's or over a team of Howards or Dunns or Sosas, etc . . . anyday. It would be nice to land a guy that can do it all, but there just aren't that many out there and none that seem to be available to the Cubs. So I ask you AGAIN, smart guy, who would YOU like to have in RF? ANSWER THE QUESTION ! ! ! ! ! like i said, i'd rather give fontenot a full time job than waste money on winn. fontenot's career ops is now .826, which is higher than winn has EVER put up in a full season. granted those numbers are a little bit skewed since fontenot has been platooned...but still, i'd be willing to bet he could match winn's high .700's OPS and wouldn't cost 8.25 million to do it. I like Font, as I said already. I want him to be our full time 2B. REALITY is that Lou IS NOT going to do that. He wants Dero at 2B and he wants a LH RF. This is not news . . . well, I guess it is OLD news . . . but get over it. Shoot, I would them to see if Font can play CF. I said that last winter. Problem is, it just ain't gonna happen. Maybe Girardi might've tried these options, but Lou isn't. So, let's here you solution for RF . . . . not really a surprise that you come from cubs.com I know you're not, because most of the people on this MB did come from there, YOU INCLUDED . . . you really got me there.

1st off, don't use that tone with me. You show me where I acted like a smart-ass towards you and then I'll merit your snide remark. If not, save it for someone who wants to put up with petty BS, I don't. 2nd, it is still quite possible that Abreu will get 12 mil. once this FA ball starts rolling, espec. when the Cubs and Mets are involved in the bidding. These are two unwilling to follow collusion tactics and would rather outbid by blowing away offers rather than get involved in a bidding war ala Soriano and Beltran. I appologize. I didn't mean to address you that way. I thought Dex posted that. Just trying to throw it back at him . . . cause he deserves it . . . always. But, the way the market is deteriorating and with all the gun-shy GM's who don't want to F-up by potentially wasting $$$$ in this economy, it is unlikely that Abreu will get that much. The trend has been developing the last couple years - GM's are getting more frugal. If they can't get a good price for a FA, they trade for young MLB ready kids or promote from within. We especially saw that last year.

So am I to understand that you consider adequate defense (vs. ABREU), speed, OBP, batting order versatility, hitting with RISP, hitting RH & LH pitching and playing well during the day to be irrelevant in consideration of player acquisitions for the Chicago Cubs? And lets not forget that he only K'ed 88 times in 598 AB which is very good for today's players. You said Abreu will command $4 mil more than Winn. Winn makes over $8 mil. NOBODY IS GOING TO PAY ABREU $12+ MIL. Ain't gonna happen. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Anyways, what exactly is relevant in your book? What qualities should JH be looking for in a RF? Let me guess . . . 40+ HR Dunn, right? Or Ibanez, who is not that much better than Winn if at all (all around) and would cost us draft picks ON TOP of his salary? Should JH just go throw more $$$$ at the problem & sign a defensive liability for the next 3 - 4 years? Should he not try to unload the expendables for 1 year with a good ballplayer just because some Cubs fans rate players only by how big their name & fame are? Tell me, smart guy, what is the answer in RF????????? I'm all for discussion and opinions, but really . . . your comment was uncalled for and ridiculous. Maybe trading for Winn might be a ridiculous concept, too. But let's here YOUR idea instead of insults. Thank you. BTW, I remember you from the other MB a few years back. Same ol Dex, heh? Does this MB have an ignore function also?

Marquis and Marshall? Maybe? I'm still crossing my fingers that JH brings Wood back. He would make all the difference, wouldn't he?

If Winn isn't enough of an upgrade, then who is? Abreu??? I don't see any areas where Abreu is significantly better except HR. You can't fairly say anything about RBI because Winn hit leadoff a lot and he was on an offensively AWEFUL team. Put him 5th on the Cubs and see how many RBI & R he gets. Also, Winn has been hitting 10 - 15 HR/yr in pitcher friendly parks like SF and SD. What if he played more games in Wrigley, Houston, Cin & Pitt? Could those HR jump to 15 - 17 ish? Winn would be much better on defense than Abreu or Dunn(not even a RF). He's good with RISP (what we need!), including runner on 3B w/ less than 2 out (BIG problem for us), he can play anywhere in the OF and hit anywhere in the lineup. He hits LHP & RHP well and had a .384 OBP in day games last year. AND, Winn is a switch hitter. The other options are Ibanez, who would cost us draft picks, or Teahen - definitely not the answer. Who else is out there? The feasibility I see on SF's part is that this is the last year on Winn's contract. I don't see them resigning him. Do you? They could trade him for several parts (guys like Marquis, Weurtz, Pie, Cedeno, etc...) and turn around and sign Abreu to a similar salary as Winn. Guys like Marquis, Weurtz and Cedeno could help them immediately. They aren't superstars, but they could be relatively cheap and effective parts if SF does get CC. Don't forget CC likes Cali & hitting. CC, Lincecum, Cain, Marquis with the additions of Renteria, Abreu and whoever they get for 3B makes them contenders in the weak NL West.

SF needs just about everything. We have a few potentially spare pieces . . . and they have Randy Winn in RF. He is a S/H, respectable on defense, stole 25 bags last year (caught 2x = 93%), had .353 and .363 OBP's last 2 years and '09 is his contract year. We have guys we COULD trade IF IT MEANT BETTERING THE TEAM. SF could use Marquis. And Weurtz. And Cedeno. Fontenot, although I really like him & see him as our 2B next year and for several more after. We have prospects that are expendable. Really, and I know this is very unpopular here, we could even trade Derosa and let Font have 2B. What I'm getting at is this: SF has to take on salary to get competitive and they ARE doing so in the FA market. Financially, trading Marquis and _______ for Winn would either be a push or lower our payroll slightly. Being that JH still plans to ADD payroll for a LH RF (i.e. Abreu), trading for Winn makes a lot of sense for US as it would leave that LH RF earmarked $$$$$ to pay Peavy instead. So, discussion: 1. would SF trade Winn? 2. do we want him? 3. what would it take to get him?