CubsFanSince1978

Sorry folksssss, I have to go eat dinner now. This is a good topic. What we all want is for the Cubs to win. Go CUbbies!!!!!

where are you getting this from? His 80 major league at bats? Not many at bats, but enough to convince me it wasn't a fluke. It's not that he was hitting the cover off the ball, it was his approach that impressed me.

And that would be a bummer because with Walker batting second, the notion of small ball goes out the window. Having just one speedy leadoff hitter is not enough. Pierre needs a fast 2-hitter behind him to be more effective. Furthermore, I don't think Walker lays as good a bunt as Cedeno. Walker will square off to bunt, Cedeno doesn't. That keeps the other team guessing. Cedeno can hit to both sides, Walker is a dead pull hitter. When Walker struggles (and he struggles for a long time), he hits too many ground balls. I just see a lot of wasted SB opportunities with Pierre because Walker does not know how to play small ball. He's too dumb and makes too many mental mistakes. My issues with Walker don't end with just his lack of fundamentals, but his less than impressive defense. How many times did we see him and Neifi hack away on the first pitch to hit a pop up when we had a runner trying to steal second?? you've convinced me - walker should definitely bat 2nd. eliminating smallball will lead to many more runs. And how do you figure that? Are you kidding? (I can't spot sarcasm if you had any). Our lack of runs scored in the first inning last year was due to NO small ball. We had too many hackers last year, and Walker is one of them. What does small ball do? It advances runners into scoring position for the big boppers and that requires capable and fundamentally sound tablesetters. One thing I agree is that Walker is a better 2-hole option than Neifi or CPatt, but that isn't much to say, is it? Small ball is a myth. If you get 27 outs in a game, why waste them? If there is a specific situation where the Cubs need to advance a runner, bunting ability is important, but that's not a way to formulate an offensive strategy. The Cubs should value not making outs over making them. And our lack of 1st inning runs was due to the fact that Lee would usually bat with 2 out, and no one on base, because our 1-2 hitters...made too many outs. Not only were Neifi and CPatt not getting on base ahead of Lee, but they were virtually automatic outs (aside from not taking a base on ball). There was a time when Neifi hit well, but we know what happened for most of the season after that.

Probably more than 15-20 times. I get your point, but it's good to have someone who can execute when the occasion asks for it. Anyway, good bunting is just one facet of the game. I also went over the fact Cedeno is very selective. Ok, lets just wait and see what both players will bring. With Walker we know pretty much what he'll bring....an ok glove, good pop, decent OBP (you see I'm not just trying to bring him down). With Cedeno, I predict many of you will be surprised. The kid is special.

Hooray. Nonononono, you don't need any speedy hitters at all. It's a luxury and you are overrating it's value. WAY down the list of things you look at when determining batting order. Thing is, Walker is a superior hitter to Cedeno in every aspect of the game. Again, we want Walker getting on base and hitting for extra bases, not taking hittable pitches so Pierre can risk an out with his less than amazing stealing prowess, not bunting or grounding out on purpose to advance runners. You don't need any speedy hitters at all? So you think the Pierre/Castillo combo was crap? (I just showed how silly your point of view looks) Common people, what I'm trying to say is that a speedy WITH good OBP 2-hitter is better than a slow one. I dont need a Porsche. That doesn't mean that it's crap. I just showed how silly your post was. Bad analogy. A Porsche doesn't score runs. Can Walker make pitchers nervous when he gets on base? NO.

That's not the point. The point is he is not fundamentally sound. If you can't remember all the mental mistakes he made, then I don't know what else to say. For those of us who don't remember them, please list by date and opponent. I'm calling BS on this. Walker may not be the best defensively and he lacks range there, but he doesn't make mental mistakes. You've provided no evidence to the contrary. The evidence is in the games he played last year. Geez I don't have the dates, but since some people tend to forget rather easily, then I guess I'll have to record everything just to prove my point. Did you forget the game when Walker threw home instead of getting the sure out at 1st base? There was no way he could gotten the runner going home. That is just one of the ton of mistakes he made.

Hooray. Nonononono, you don't need any speedy hitters at all. It's a luxury and you are overrating it's value. WAY down the list of things you look at when determining batting order. Thing is, Walker is a superior hitter to Cedeno in every aspect of the game. Again, we want Walker getting on base and hitting for extra bases, not taking hittable pitches so Pierre can risk an out with his less than amazing stealing prowess, not bunting or grounding out on purpose to advance runners. You don't need any speedy hitters at all? So you think the Pierre/Castillo combo was crap? (I just showed how silly your point of view looks) Common people, what I'm trying to say is that a speedy WITH good OBP 2-hitter is better than a slow one.

That's not the point. The point is he is not fundamentally sound. If you can't remember all the mental mistakes he made, then I don't know what else to say.

And that would be a bummer because with Walker batting second, the notion of small ball goes out the window. Having just one speedy leadoff hitter is not enough. Pierre needs a fast 2-hitter behind him to be more effective. Furthermore, I don't think Walker lays as good a bunt as Cedeno. Walker will square off to bunt, Cedeno doesn't. That keeps the other team guessing. Cedeno can hit to both sides, Walker is a dead pull hitter. When Walker struggles (and he struggles for a long time), he hits too many ground balls. I just see a lot of wasted SB opportunities with Pierre because Walker does not know how to play small ball. He's too dumb and makes too many mental mistakes. My issues with Walker don't end with just his lack of fundamentals, but his less than impressive defense. How many times did we see him and Neifi hack away on the first pitch to hit a pop up when we had a runner trying to steal second?? you've convinced me - walker should definitely bat 2nd. eliminating smallball will lead to many more runs. And how do you figure that? Are you kidding? (I can't spot sarcasm if you had any). Our lack of runs scored in the first inning last year was due to NO small ball. We had too many hackers last year, and Walker is one of them. What does small ball do? It advances runners into scoring position for the big boppers and that requires capable and fundamentally sound tablesetters. One thing I agree is that Walker is a better 2-hole option than Neifi or CPatt, but that isn't much to say, is it? Small ball is a myth. If you get 27 outs in a game, why waste them? If there is a specific situation where the Cubs need to advance a runner, bunting ability is important, but that's not a way to formulate an offensive strategy. The Cubs should value not making outs over making them. And our lack of 1st inning runs was due to the fact that Lee would usually bat with 2 out, and no one on base, because our 1-2 hitters...made too many outs. What's your definition of small ball? You make it sound as if it was one-dimensional. It isn't just bunting, it's also not only getting on base, but also stealing, advancing to second when the opposing pitcher is not paying attention, or just good baserunning qualifies as well. The 2003 Marlins won because they had all the ingredients. They had pitching, good bullpen, defense, small ball, some power with Lee and Cabrera and a few others. A balanced approach is the best way to win.

And that would be a bummer because with Walker batting second, the notion of small ball goes out the window. Having just one speedy leadoff hitter is not enough. Pierre needs a fast 2-hitter behind him to be more effective. Furthermore, I don't think Walker lays as good a bunt as Cedeno. Walker will square off to bunt, Cedeno doesn't. That keeps the other team guessing. Cedeno can hit to both sides, Walker is a dead pull hitter. When Walker struggles (and he struggles for a long time), he hits too many ground balls. I just see a lot of wasted SB opportunities with Pierre because Walker does not know how to play small ball. He's too dumb and makes too many mental mistakes. My issues with Walker don't end with just his lack of fundamentals, but his less than impressive defense. How many times did we see him and Neifi hack away on the first pitch to hit a pop up when we had a runner trying to steal second?? I'd rather have a number two hitter with the ability to double Pierre home from first than have a hitter that would give up an out to get him to second or third. It's just me, but the outs are important. Furthermore, Walker is usually a patient hitter. If Pierre wanted to steal, Walker's patience would give him time to do so. Cedeno is a much more agressive hitter. Also, I'm not sure Ronny is up to the pressure of hitting in the second spot. And I don't see how anyone can say Walker is a "dumb" player. That's about as baseless of a comment as I've seen. It's the other way around IMO. I think Walker can be either or (patient and sometimes aggressive). I don't know how you think Cedeno is more aggressive. One thing is for sure, he doesn' swing at pitches out of the zone much. He's way more selective than any other Cub I've seen in recent years. Murton is almost as selective as he is. Like I said before, good AND fast 2-hitters like Luis Castillo don't hit a whole lot of doubles or homeruns, but they act as secondary leadoff hitters that put pressure on opposing pitcher on the basepaths. I'd rather have that than an all or nothing doubles hitter (good), first pitch pop up hitter (bad), slow ground ball double play hitter (very bad). I guess you don't remember the amount of mental mistakes Walker made on baserunning, throwing to home when he should have thrown to first to get the sure out....I mean, I don't know how a player like that doesn't get called dumb. Walker is not a fundamentally sound player, and that is a fact.

And that would be a bummer because with Walker batting second, the notion of small ball goes out the window. Having just one speedy leadoff hitter is not enough. Pierre needs a fast 2-hitter behind him to be more effective. Furthermore, I don't think Walker lays as good a bunt as Cedeno. Walker will square off to bunt, Cedeno doesn't. That keeps the other team guessing. Cedeno can hit to both sides, Walker is a dead pull hitter. When Walker struggles (and he struggles for a long time), he hits too many ground balls. I just see a lot of wasted SB opportunities with Pierre because Walker does not know how to play small ball. He's too dumb and makes too many mental mistakes. My issues with Walker don't end with just his lack of fundamentals, but his less than impressive defense. How many times did we see him and Neifi hack away on the first pitch to hit a pop up when we had a runner trying to steal second?? you've convinced me - walker should definitely bat 2nd. eliminating smallball will lead to many more runs. And how do you figure that? Are you kidding? (I can't spot sarcasm if you had any). Our lack of runs scored in the first inning last year was due to NO small ball. We had too many hackers last year, and Walker is one of them. What does small ball do? It advances runners into scoring position for the big boppers and that requires capable and fundamentally sound tablesetters. One thing I agree is that Walker is a better 2-hole option than Neifi or CPatt, but that isn't much to say, is it?

And that would be a bummer because with Walker batting second, the notion of small ball goes out the window. Having just one speedy leadoff hitter is not enough. Pierre needs a fast 2-hitter behind him to be more effective. Furthermore, I don't think Walker lays as good a bunt as Cedeno. Walker will square off to bunt, Cedeno doesn't. That keeps the other team guessing. Cedeno can hit to both sides, Walker is a dead pull hitter. When Walker struggles (and he struggles for a long time), he hits too many ground balls. I just see a lot of wasted SB opportunities with Pierre because Walker does not know how to play small ball. He's too dumb and makes too many mental mistakes. My issues with Walker don't end with just his lack of fundamentals, but his less than impressive defense. How many times did we see him and Neifi hack away on the first pitch to hit a pop up when we had a runner trying to steal second??

If Jones continues to struggle against lefties and hits around .260-.270, then you're right. Do you think that slow Walker would have a problem getting picked off at 2B when Murton gets those infield hits? I don't think Walker is that slow. Jones should be on the bench against lefties. Yes he's very slow. He's the slowest we have, except for Aram. I think he got slower after his injury last year.

I don't think those OBP numbers show what Cedeno is capable of. His good eye at the plate and selection showed me that. Too bad he got injured, but he was going to be as impressive as Murton. I think Cedeno can match or even surpass Murton in BA and OBP, except in power. With more pop, Murton is going drive in more runs that Cedeno. That's why I think Murton should bat 6th.

If Jones continues to struggle against lefties and hits around .260-.270, then you're right. Do you think that slow Walker would have a problem getting picked off at 2B when Murton gets those infield hits?

I don't think that's a bad lineup. To me, as long as Jones isn't batting 2nd or between Lee and ARAM it's fine. You're right, Jones Ks too much to bat 2nd. I have the bad feeling the Dusty didn't learn the lesson with the Burnitz fiasco.

My lineup is probably not the popular one here, but I'll explain why I think it should go this way: Pierre CF Cedeno SS Lee 1B Aramis 3B Jones RF (this is where a lot of you say NOOOO) Murton LF Walker 2B Barrett C Everybody agrees Pierre should leadoff (even Dusty lol). Cedeno is the first controversial figure here because most of you are not sold on him yet. I think he's ready for the job. The kid is hungry and I don't think pressure at that spot is going to bother him. I gave my views on why he should bat 2nd. on my Cedeno & Murton topic. His OBP is going to be ok, or better than that. Lee is our 3 unless Aram gets sizzling hot. Now, Jones is the main piece of the puzzle here.....if he can improve his hitting against lefties, then he will help this team big time. I hope that his chat with Tony Gwyn has been fruitful. Jones is taking the place in the lineup of where Burnitz left off. I have him at 5th because of his power. In a good season, he can hit 25-30 homeruns, and drive in 90-100 RBIs (if we have men on base). You can't waste that kind of potential RBI production at the 7th spot where some of you want him. I'm more optimistic and I think that he's out to prove the naysayers wrong. He has Lee and Aram around him, so he won't feel like he has to carry the team on his shoulders like with the Twins in the last couple of years. Murton has the capability of being a 2 hitter, but has enough pop to be a 6th. Walker is a doubles hitter and drives in runs. Walker typically has a .350 OBP, but he doesn't seem like a patient hitter to me. When he's hot, his OBP will stay up. I remember in the beginning of 2004 that his OBP was over .400 and he did very well, but then in 2004 and 2005, he went through a long drought around May or June. He tends to be aggressive and is a pull hitter, he hits into a lot of ground balls, which can turn into double plays. He's too slow to be an effective 2-hitter. Despite Barrett having one of the best BAs for a catcher, he's great getting tons of meaningless hits with nobody in scoring position. For a good reason he bats 7th or 8th.

I'm not worried about Cedeno not having good OBP. He should have anywhere from .350 to .380 OBP. Murton can match or even surpass that, but his higher SLG% is better suited for driving in runs.

Why does Murton get a higher rating than Cedeno from the mayority? They are very much alike in the way they approach the plate. I think Murton is clearer in the minds of fans because he had more playing time, while Cedeno got injured. But I was left with a very strong impression of Cedeno and his maturity, showing that he is fundamentally sound, despite being only 22. Both are equally patient hitters....But I think Cedeno has a slightly better eye. He's very selective...doesn't swing at pitches away or in the dirt; doesn't swing away at the first pitch all the time (like most of Dusty's vets). Cedeno is a linedrive/gap hitter that hits well to both sides. Murton also hits well to both sides, and got many infield hits, and is more of a ground ball hitter than Cedeno. I see them as "small ball" or "smart ball" players. Dusty can now work with a good 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup. He doesn't have the excuse of a slow "baseclogger." Why use Todd Walker, when you have a better options? Murton is a good candidate for the 2 hole (much better than the slow Todd Walker), but I'd say the best option is Cedeno. Everybody keeps putting him 8th. in the lineup, and I think that's a big mistake. While he's not a stolen base threat (yet), he has a better chance to beat out a double play (with Pierre at 1st) than Walker--who hits a lot of ground balls. Cedeno can eventually be a 15-25 SB guy. Pierre can give him tips on baserunning. Cedeno can certainly run. So can Murton, but he has a bit more pop, so I would put him 6th. in the lineup where he can drive in more runs. I project Murton will hit between 15-20 homeruns, while Cedeno hits 9-12. Cedeno doesn't square to bunt, and he lays a very good one. I would trust him more on laying a suicide squeeze than Walker, who makes too many mental mistakes. I remember when Cedeno hit 2nd behind Hairston a couple of games in Sept. He sparked the offense and the Cubs won because of his efforts. Dusty didn't take notice and went back into tampering the lineup. Luis Castillo is considered one of the best 2-hitters in the game, and he doesn't have power at all. Why is he good? He advances the runner....he lays a good bunt, he can steal bases. You don't need a guy that hits a lot of doubles or hits 20 hrs batting #2. Some people look too much into SLG % when evaluating a leadoff or 2-hitter. Pierre will provide a lot of intangibles, little things that help the team win, and that counts more than the stuff the stats geeks get all excited about.

With a guy like Wuertz/Nova slated for use in the sixth inning Dusty shouldn't have to overuse are starters. I can't really remember a pen with more talent in the last years off the top of my head that the Cubs had. Ohman/Eyre/Williamson/Wuertz are all 7,8 inning guys on other clubs. Ohman and Williamson could be closers for some clubs when healthy. Williamson could be a setup/closer, but I don't think Ohman could be. Ohman is rather a lefty specialist/loogy. He's not particularly good against righties.