DougDascenzo

my last post for a while: Im not saying drop both. Im saying drop one. and pick up better offensive players in the outfield. Trade for them if you have too.

So now you are agreeing with my original statement that Def Eff is an irrelevant statistic?? or do you still think it's a good indicator of overall defense? Defensive Efficiency was brought up so i am just pointing out that the majority of good teams have better defensive efficiency's than the cubs Im not sure where i implied what you said in your post. As you say, obviously there is a correlation. This would lead me to believe, that we should work to improve the defense, not actively and obviously make it worse by going with a middle infield of Nomar and Walker. \ Boston and New York are american league teams i didn't count them for merely that reason. They also have better, more well rounded offenses than the Cubs IMO it's possible to improve both offensively AND defensively this offseason. However this becomes much more difficult if we retain Walker, as it eliminates the possibility of also bringing the huge, and fairly cheap, bat of Nomar back into the fold. Are you guys saying we shouldn't improve defensively??? All im saying is that we should improve defensively, as obviously the majority of teams with elite records, in other words, with a good chance of getting into the playoffs, are better at Defensive Efficiency

Wow...let's criticize something and discount it when we admittedly know nothing about it. :roll: Since we have to trust your eyes over other metrics, can you give me your reference point. What I mean is how many games are you watching weekly that aren't the Cubs? Also what qualifies you to critique defense? did you not read the other 90% of my post? please go back and take a look

im also gonna mention the fact that the Cub's current Def Eff is inflated over what it will be next year if we go with a middle infield of Nomar and Walker. It's inflated because Neifi has played in 143 games to date. the defense WILL be worse if we go with a Nomar Walker MI. this dictates getting rid of one of them. If i can only keep one, I keep Nomar. Higher reward for probly what 3 or 4 million more? IMO Nomar cant be any worse than Walker defensively. Im sure someone could come up with a stat showing how awesome Todd WAlker is defensively. to that i say stats are dumb.

Defensive efficiency is a pretty good measure for the overall defense. It is simply the rate at which balls in play are converted to outs. Apparently the Cubs are the 4th best team in the NL at doing so. okay Tim Please re-read my above post and tell me what you think. BTW i count 4 NL teams with better Def Eff making the cubs 5th in the NL take a good look and i think you may come to agree with my assesment of the situation. the only real anomaly to me is Atlanta... seems it doesn't matter what that team does, they win their division regardless.

i believe my eyes over some stat that i know nothing about. and no, i dont want to know how its calculated or anything. My eyes and brain tell me the defense is horrible. IMO there are just too many variables involved with Defense for one statistic to have any relevance. Just MO tho im sure you think otherwise looking at that list only two relevant teams, Atlanta and Florida are worse than ChN by the way. Teams w/ better DEf Eff: Oakland White Sox Cleveland Houston Saint Louis Philadelphia Minnesota Angels Seattle (the only bad team) Mets What do all those teams have in common??? They all have better records than the Cubs (except Seattle and the Mets who are .001 ahead of the cubs and as i write this have the same record) Notice also the teams closest to chicago on this list are the poorest teams ON the list. Good teams w/ worse Def Eff (excluding any NL west teams, though they are in contention: Washington Atlanta Yankees and Red Sox (they obviously have some pretty good O) Florida So just 3 good teams. interesting that they are all in the NL East I am now going to interpret this for you if you still dont see what im saying. Most good teams are better at fielding. Only 3 decent NL teams are worse and they all are in the same division. With the unbalanced schedules, their defensive weaknesses are minimized or cancelled out when playing their divisional rivals, who all besides Philly are poor Def EFF teams. So you want to look at Defensive Efficiency??? Okay i looked at it and it supports my argument that the Cubs are not good enough defensively.

It didn't? Based on what? The 3 weeks they played together? all three have been on the team all year. It hasn't worked. And yea the 3 weeks they played together, i believe they played sub .500 ball for the only stretch we have to go on. I dont understand how others dont see it... the defense is horrible and has been for a good portion of the season.

Actually, this team could thrive with Walker at leadoff. Depending on who they get in the OF, they could also live with Hairston in that role. The only true need they have is one good bat in the OF. After that they have lots of options to mix and match. I never understood why Walker wasn't leading off more. He can walk, he can hit for average. He won't steal 30 bases, but the steal is a lost art anyway. But he can get on base. Murton should be batting 2nd. And Walkers D IS NOT THAT BAD!!! (from a few posts upthread) People talk about him like he's the absolute worst defensive 2Bman the game has ever known. Get over it, people. He's adequate enough to hold it down. He's not going to be the 2nd coming of Sandberg out there. Get that straight. Walker's merely adequate defense (the descriptor 'adequate' being arguable at best and downright false in some people's opinion) would be acceptable if we didn't have complete defensive liabilities at SS and 3B an infield of walker nomar and ramirez didn't and wont work. either SS or 2b need to be upgraded defensively. This means getting rid of either Nomar or Walker...or moving one to the outfield (not an attractive option to me) If i had to choose between the bats of Nomar and Walker, i take nomar. Nomar will come at a discount next year, and if we retain Cedeno and Neifi we are somewhat protected against an injury to Nomar... As i see it this would leave two holes in the outfield, assuming murton stays on and continues a good level of play. (perhaps an unfair assumption)

he may have a lot of options position wise preventing him to be hamstrung in terms of HAVING to acquire a SS or HAVING to acquire a CF... But he is handicapped in that he needs to fill specific roles... for instance: a leadoff hitter, a preferably left handed power bat, solid bullpen dudes. This gives other teams more leverage... But like you said, these specific roles can come conceivably at many positions, with in house viable options to fill around them....

that movie was awesome what are you talking about???

just one outfielder??? who do you plan on keeping? Burnitz or Patterson? IMO we cant go into next year depending on either. I say move Nomar to second and let Walker go. True Walker would be cheaper, but if we're going to have a poppy caca on D second baseman it should be Nomar over Todd Walker...besides nomar will be fairly cheap anyway. I say also retain Neifi to back up both Ronny and Nomar, and also fill in for Nomar if/when he gets hurt. Try to get Giles. If you cant get giles, then trade for cliff floyd or adam dunn or someone..anyone CF could be addressed in a number of ways. just imagine if we got giles and Damon Damon Cedeno Giles Lee Ramirez Nomar Murton Barret probly not likely to get both tho :( So a lead off hitting centerfielder needs to be acquired. Jacque Jones? Juan Pierre? Podsednik? I dont know but this is the trickiest part. If all else fails i guess go with a Patterson Hairston platoon until Pie is ready....This should be the last option Use the remaining money to get two good arms for the bullpen and a power back up infielder like say mackowiak or someone similar who could play 1b and 3b...

lets just hope we dont see: Holly Burnitz Lawton

How about this lineup: Walker Giles Lee Aram Burnitz Nomar Murton Barret looks good to me. ORRR keep Lawton Lawton Giles Lee Aram Burnitz Nomar Walker Barret me likey

ah, he of the 34 major league at bats... methinks Dusty was going to play Gerut or Holly over him anyway except against lefties. I know he started against a righty recently... but come on, it's Dusty Baker we're talking about. Murton's OBP is not going to stay that high. who knows how far down it will go. Lawton will probably only regress to .350 worst case.

While it's not the blockbuster trade everyone was hoping for, it does add to the depth and versatility of the team. As of right now, you have 3 options for LF, 3 for CF, 3 for RF, 3 for 2B, 2 for leadoff, etc. Unfortunately, instead of Hairston replacing Macias as supersub, I'm sure Cedeno will go down to AAA. Hopefully, the Cubs will cut Remlinger when Williamson and Wood return. Who knows, maybe they can get a little something (very little) for him when he goes on waivers. Actually I am satisfied with this trade I just think it's funny that the guy withthe teams highest OBP is going to be the one replaced. cuse again, they're not replacing Lee...They're replacing Holly who has an OBP of around .300 Where you gettin that bro?

Im hoping Remmy gets DFA'd and Mitre and Cedeno get sent down.

But it seems like Murton has been winning more playing time lately. Who started in LF today? Gerut Holly came in about the 7th or 8th i think

Not sure who you mean it would be ironic that he's replacing... The guy with the highest OBP, isn't that Lee??? Lawton is probably not going to replace Lee. Hairston's OBP is higher than Holly Neifi and narrowly Barrets...everyone else on the team is equal or better... Despite that i still would rather have him in left, Holly is just a black hole in the lineup. The thing the Cubs need most, OBP, would be improved most by having Lawton in left field...True Hairston is not great in center, but the offense has been downright brutal and leaving Holly out there is not the answer.

You mean against ALL righties right??? i haven't been able to see many games lately, has Ramirez been batting cleanup more often?? seems every game i know of except when a left is pitching agianst us Ramirez bats 5th behind Burnitz. I like Lawton and Walker 1-2 also, but I assume Dusty will want to spread out the left handers as he seems infatuated with the Righty Lefty Righty thing...But maybe that will all change... Like i said though, hopefully Nomar heats it up and can claim the two spot behind Lawton.

and here's what i would do when Nomar comes back: Lawton Hairston Lee Ramirez Burnitz Nomar Walker Barret That's a good lineup/ perhaps switch Hairston and Walker though i like Walker having the RBI opportunities over Hairston...If/when Nomar heats it up then: Lawton Nomar Lee Burnitz Ramirez Walker Hairston Barret Of course what Dusty will do when Nomar comes back: Neifi Walker Lee Burnitz Ramirez Holly Barret Lawton

But when was the last time he logged time in CF? I want Murton to get his AB's but I don't want Holla starting anymore. So whats your new lineup? Here's some ideas depending on where lawton plays: Lawton Hairston Lee Burnitz Ramirez Walker Neifi Barret Lawton Walker Lee Ramirez Burnitz Barret Neifi Hairston IF Lawton plays CF Lawton Walker Lee Burnitz Ramirez Holly Neifi Barret Lawton replacing Holly improves the offense somewhat significantly... Lawton replacing Hairston doesn't improve things very much IMO... 30 or 40 points of OBP as opposed to the 80 points jump if he plays left. So im all for an outfield of Lawton Hairston Burnitz right now.

soriano is an improvement over walker, but not a big one. it's not big enough to justify trading good prospects for him, and paying him 3 times more. also, soriano is a butcher in the field, which brings down his value further. the cubs' number one weakness offensively is OBP, getting soriano doesn't address that at all. It actually hurts as we lose walker's superior OBP... It also still leaves the black hole in left field. Soriano would be an upgrade in homeruns, an upgrade which this team doesn't need. We need OBP. We need a left fielder. We need Adam Dunn.

Actually, what Dusty would do would be more like: Hairston Walker Lee Burnitz Aramis Soriano Perez Barrett I don't know why he thinks Barrett should bat behind Perez, but he will continue to bat eighth until Dusty leaves. Looks about right to me, but when Nomar comes back where does he hit?? Walker Nomar Lee Burnitz Ramirez Soriano Hairston Barret ?? or maybe he just bats in the 7 hole until he gets his stroke back... either way our current lineup plus Soriano and Nomar looks pretty good to me.

How great would having Soriano in LF really be? He is a good power hitter, especially for a second baseman, but how much better is he than an average LF? He also has a pretty low OBP. I guess I'd do it as long as the Cubs didn't have to give up too much talent or take on too much money. Maybe Hendry could pry a reliever from them too. For some reason I thought he had a better OBP. Only a .322 career OBP. I change my opinion...i'd pass The guy is on pace to hit 40+ dingers this year. If the price is right then get him... His OBP is still an upgrade over Holly... Plus hed be most likely giving Ramirez pretty potent protection.

lets speculate on who we'd be sending back... Mitre/Welley + Holly/Patterson for Soriano I imagine they'd rather take Patterson than Holly and thats fine with me... hopefully not too much more than that as Soriano does not add much to what our offense lacks, namely OBP. He does give pretty awesome power though, to protect ramirez or Burnitz. Gerut figures to be a good late inning defensive replacement and maybe occassional starter for left. If you deal Holly you still got Grieve to be a lefty bat off the bench. Question is what would this do to Murton's situation... Weird i just read an article on espn talking about how Soriano didn't want to be moved to the outfield. Lineup with Soriano: not much change really just plug alfonso in for holly: Hairston Walker Lee Ramirez Burnitz Soriano Barret Cedeno Or what dusty will do: Hairston Walker Lee Burnitz Ramirez Neifi Soriano Macias at catcher to maintain the alternating Lefty righty thing hey dude you cant have two right handed batters in a row you know, dude.