DeuceBaseman

One of the insiders at OH is telling everyone to relax and that the only holdup to the Bedard trade was paperwork and Angelos needs to look it over because he was unavailable the past few days. I think the trade will be done today or tomorrow. There are no injuries to Jones.

What's so spectacular about Petco Park exactly? I understand it is a big major league park. So how does that effect Greene's OBP exactly? One can argue that it helps it, and one can argue it hurts it. Obviously his HR's will be effected. So he'll probably hit more somewhere else, but a lot of you guys believe Figgins had a fluke year, so why couldn't Greene have had a fluke year in HR's? He only had 15 HR's each of the 3 years before last years 27. Since the park is big I think there would be more open grass for base hits to land, therefore his average should go up. And OBP wouldnt be any different than batting average in a different park because walks have nothing to do with the size of the park. Either you are not reading or are intentionally obtuse. The post to which you are referring is talking about the differences in SLG. Theriot>/ = Greene OBP Green>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theriot SLG Advantage Greene I read it very well thank you. I bolded the portions for you if you want to go back and read it. He says Greene's OBP would be between .320-.340 if he wasnt in Petco, why would it go up so much not being in Petco? And then he says it again with reference to the park and OBP. So I was reading it.

What's so spectacular about Petco Park exactly? I understand it is a big major league park. So how does that effect Greene's OBP exactly? One can argue that it helps it, and one can argue it hurts it. Obviously his HR's will be effected. So he'll probably hit more somewhere else, but a lot of you guys believe Figgins had a fluke year, so why couldn't Greene have had a fluke year in HR's? He only had 15 HR's each of the 3 years before last years 27. Since the park is big I think there would be more open grass for base hits to land, therefore his average should go up. And OBP wouldnt be any different than batting average in a different park because walks have nothing to do with the size of the park.

Yea, that's what we're doing. I'm getting the feeling that Deuce is 13 or 14. I remember responding pretty much the same way on like AOL message boards at around that age when all of the conventional wisdom baseball crap I thought I knew was brought into question. We should probably go easier on him... :? think again...a quote of his from the cubs.com board I don't know whats more disturbing. That quote, or the fact that hes coaching kids. It's disturbing that I coach kids because I think Greene over Theriot is a smaller upgrade than Figgins over Lofton. I know a lot about baseball and you guys dont have to try and bash my personal life because of my opinion on major league baseball. I got recruited to coach because of my baseball knowledge. And I do drive a Dodge Stratus!

Alright this is getting no where. My opinion is very very different than a lot of yours and I think its crazy what some of you are saying, but we're just gonna continue to argue and argue. I'm done, so you guys can just talk to eachother and jerk off over khalil greene's amazing .291 OBP. So lets just end this discussion.

we're not really saying HRs are worth a lot. We're saying that OBP is worth a lot. and we're also comparing the two extremes, Yes, as long as Jones is hitting his 40 HRs not like last year id take him over Ichiro, who really isnt much more than below average defensively. Ichiro is below average defensively? What?!! Are you kidding me? You would take jones' .220 avg and 40 HR over Ichiro's .350 avg. and 40 SB?

Who would you guys rather have, Ichiro or Andruw Jones? I mean they play similar defense but one hits a lot of HR's while the other has a really high batting average. Based on your importance of HRs and slugging you guys would take Andruw right?

No, I like this board and its quick on getting news and rumors. But some of these opinions that I've come across today are ridiculous.

So based on your "numbers" Theriot is better, but you would rather have Green, but Green is god awful. OK, you've convinced me. Because I know it's not just about the numbers, but these guys are insisting on me including numbers into it. I dont think Theriot is good, but I dont think Greene is much of an upgrade. You gotta take into account future projections as well. It is just about the numbers. I don't give two craps what you remember seeing on TV. And future projections? Jesus Christ this isn't worth the time. Is that you, Meph? This isn't funny. It's funny how 4 posts above you just said "STATISTICS DON'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY." And now you say "it is just about the numbers." Ok smarty you know everything yet you just completely contradict yourself in a matter of minutes.

So based on your "numbers" Theriot is better, but you would rather have Green, but Green is god awful. OK, you've convinced me. Because I know it's not just about the numbers, but these guys are insisting on me including numbers into it. I dont think Theriot is good, but I dont think Greene is much of an upgrade. You gotta take into account future projections as well.

LOVE THIS. If you guys were smart you would read it more carefully where I put "since it shows what kind of player they are." HR's and SB's are comparable depending on the player. For instance Greene is a power hitter thus he hit around 28 HR's and had around 4 stolen bases. Theriot is a speedy guy meaning he hit around 4 HR's and has about 28 SB's. See how they are comparable. I'm not saying I would take 28 SB's over 28 HR's, but im saying thats the type of player they are. Greene has a good amount of HR's for the type of hitter he his, and Theriot has a good amount of SB's for the type of player he is. Why is it ok to say that HR's and SLG matter but OBP and SB's dont??? Who the f*ck decides that that is more important in baseball? I completely disagree. I think OBP is just as important as stuff like SLG. I think batting average is just as important as stuff like HR's. It's ridiculous to say it is not!

The idea isn't to keep those four. The idea is to use those four in a trade that would be more of an upgrade than from Lofton "up" to Figgins... Theriot up to any real shortstop is a much larger improvement than Figgins would be over Lofton, if he is one at all. Let me guess, you think Khalil Greene over Theriot is more of an upgrade than Figgins over Lofton?? Cuz there arent any other shortstops out there that are available. And Greene is awful! Yes, Greene over Theriot is a much bigger upgrade than Figgins over Lofton. Much bigger. I'd pull some stats to prove it, but you probably saw all four players on TV a few times. How could I argue against that? I'll save you the time!!!! Greene vs. Theriot BA- .254 vs. .266 (hmmmm) OBP- .291 vs. .326 (hmmmm) BB- 32 vs. 49 K- 128 vs. 50 (ouch) SB- 4 vs. 28 (comparable to the HR's since it shows what kind of player they are) HR- 27 vs. 3 (this is the only thing Greene is that much better than Theriot)... power #s In my opinion I would rather have Greene than Theriot. But based on numbers Greene is god awful. An OBP less than .300!!!!! Are you kidding me? Yes Greene plays good defense and hits for more power. But Theriot isnt that type of player. There is no way Greene is more of an upgrade over Theriot than Figgins is over Lofton.

The idea isn't to keep those four. The idea is to use those four in a trade that would be more of an upgrade than from Lofton "up" to Figgins... Theriot up to any real shortstop is a much larger improvement than Figgins would be over Lofton, if he is one at all. Let me guess, you think Khalil Greene over Theriot is more of an upgrade than Figgins over Lofton?? Cuz there arent any other shortstops out there that are available. And Greene is awful!

Oh wow, now you guys are gonna gang up on me and say Lofton is better than Figgins. This is freaking ridiculous. I really hope all Cub fans arent as dumb as you guys. I said that I would NOTTTTTTTTT give up stud prospects for Figgins, which is what it would take to get him. But this thread started by saying giving up Murton + others for Figgins. If others included a package centered around Cedeno, Dempster, Marquis, Veal, Patterson I would do it in a second. Yes Lofton's #'s are comparable to Figgins over the last few years BUT there is a reason why he is not signed until the last second EVERY YEAR! I like Lofton but I would much rather have Figgins. Lofton is on the DECLINE. One of these years he's gonna be awful. And when you put up the comparing numbers you guys leave out the real good ones. Figgins is in his prime. Last year could be a sign of things to come, or it could not. Im gonna say it was NOT a fluke. Figgins just turned 30. Lofton will be 41 in a few months. .330 avg, .393 obp, 41 SB!! How are these not stud numbers???? Lofton did very well last year. .296 avg, .357 obp, 23 SB. But that doesnt compare to Figgins, sorry. And you can talk about the previous years, but it wont matter cuz one is on the decline and one is on the rise. So please tell me this. Say we end up trading Pie and Gallagher for Roberts. (which i dont think we will) Which would u rather have...... A) Trade Murton, Cedeno, Veal and Dempster for Figgins or B) Sign Lofton and keep those 4? Please I hope to God you dont say B. Cuz that is ridiculous.

Don't trade off our assets for Figgins to play in CF. Just sign Lofton. Murton isnt much of an asset!!! Lofton does not compare to Figgins. Figgins is a stud, Lofton is a good cheap CF, but dont compare him to Figgins. Trading Murton and other stuff from the Cubs (Cedeno, dempster, marquis, veal, patterson) is worth getting Figgins over Lofton! Lofton is old, he will decline soon. Figgins will be good for years. You're not giving up assets for Figgins. But i dont think the Angels will trade Figgins without getting studs from us.

Very good point. I think that may be where we are headed. I just don't see the Angels need/desire to part with Figgins with the leftover parts the Cubs have after a Roberts trade. Matthews Jr is someone the Angels actually want to part with. That's what I was just thinking. I think the Angels would much rather part with Matthews. If we trade Gallagher and Pie to the Orioles for Roberts and HOPEFULLY something else. Then we can trade that something else, and Cedeno, and maybe more for Matthews. BUT I just dont see us trading gallagher and pie for roberts. it just doesnt make sense to me. Thats too much.

Figgins is EXACTLY what the Cubs need. A fast guy who can play CF and hit over .300. We dont have any of those guys. Theriot cant bat near that. Neither can Pie. We need guys just like Figgins and Roberts, so why not get both? 1) Brian Roberts 2B 2) Chone Figgins CF 3) Derrek Lee 1B 4) Aramis Ramirez 3B 5) Alfonso Soriano LF 6) Kosuke Fukudome RF 7) Geovany Soto C 8) Ryan Theriot SS/Mark DeRosa SS Ridiculous! But not happening. We just dont match up well with the Angels. They need a SS. or 3B

There has to be more to it than that. Anaheim currently sports: Vladmir Guerrero Torii Hunter Gary Matthews Jr. Juan Rivera Garret Anderson Reggie Willits in their outfield. There is no room for Pie. Yeah I dont think we would trade Pie to the Angels for Figgins cuz they dont need him. I think Pie would go to the Orioles. Maybe Pie and Gallagher to the Orioles for Roberts and something else. Maybe this is all taking too long because they have to work the steps out. For example.... Mariners give Jones, Sherrill, Tillman, and Chen for Bedard. Orioles then trade Sherrill, Mora and Roberts to the cubs for Gallagher, Murton, and Pie. Cubs then trade Sherrill, Cedeno, Mora and others for Figgins. Angels really have no needs except for a SS and maybe some RP. And if they trade Figgins they would need a 3B. So maybe they get a RP, SS, and 3B for figgins like Sherrill, mora and cedeno. I know this all wont happen but it make sense to me.

They were talking about Johan Santana and Kenny said he likes the 2 deals that Hendry has on the table right now, and Kenny believes that the 2 trades will go through. (not for santana) If it is Chone figgins and Roberts then that would be amazing. I would not care about giving up pie if figgins is comin back.

On the Waddle and Silvy show on ESPN 1000 Crane Kenny said that Hendry has 2 big trades on the table and he thinks both should go through and he is excited about. And he hinted that they are not for starting pitching. Of course one has to be Roberts. The other maybe Greene. I dont think Byrd is a big name.

I just think that I saw a lot of stuff I liked from Theriot this year. And I have seen no player worse than Cedeno has looked at the ML level. And the Cubs management must agree with me if they insist that Theriot is their starting SS. I hope Cedeno improves and his minors numbers translate to the majors, but for some reason they haven't and I dont know if they ever will. Now can we end this conversation because it isnt getting anywhere.

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here? I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?