DeuceBaseman

Isn't this an incredibly redundant statement? Who wouldn't be an "advocate" of such a thing? Well they were saying that Carlos Guillen couldnt play SS anymore cuz he was moved to 1B. And they brought up AROD being moved to 3B and making fun of me saying would I count him as a SS too? And I would! But he's not a SS right now, and hasn't been for years. That doesn't mean he can't still play it, but to consider him an active SS in any capacity is false. I know, i didnt consider him in my SS rankings, someone else did.

Isn't this an incredibly redundant statement? Who wouldn't be an "advocate" of such a thing? Well they were saying that Carlos Guillen couldnt play SS anymore cuz he was moved to 1B. And they brought up AROD being moved to 3B and making fun of me saying would I count him as a SS too? And I would!

So you just got into an argument and you didn't even know what it was about? It started because someone said that Greene is an above average offensive SS and Theriot is below average. I disagreed and said Greene is not above average. They are both average to below average.

Carlos Guillen is no longer a SS. I'd still put him at SS over Greene. Just like I'd put DeRosa at SS over Greene. OK well I will put Albert Pujols at SS over Greene too. Now hes number 15. Aww your so funny. Albert Pujols never was a MLB SS like Carlos Guillen was very recently. Carlos Guillen's poor defense doesnt make up for the fact that he is 10 times better on offense than Greene. OK, add ARod then. I still don't see how Greene's position ranking among other eligible SSs has anything to do with the fact that he would be a significant upgrade over Ryan Theriot. Well I'll agree with that. I was a big advocate of signing AROD this offseason and putting him at SS. You guys can keep putting these star players at SS to move Theriot down the list, but you are still moving Greene down as well so I dont get your point. So lets stop being smart asses and actually pretend like your knowledgeable at baseball.

Carlos Guillen is no longer a SS. I'd still put him at SS over Greene. Just like I'd put DeRosa at SS over Greene. OK well I will put Albert Pujols at SS over Greene too. Now hes number 15. Aww your so funny. Albert Pujols never was a MLB SS like Carlos Guillen was very recently. Carlos Guillen's poor defense doesnt make up for the fact that he is 10 times better on offense than Greene.

Yeah thats cuz I ripped him apart and posted how he was wrong about everything this offseason.

Thats why you bat Fukudome 2nd and not Theriot.

Stephen Drew, Julio Lugo, Yuniesky Betancourt, Felipe Lopez, Jack Wilson, Jason Bartlett, Adam Everett, and of course, Khalil Greene You sure? Yes I am, I'd take Theriot over Wilson, Bartlett, Everett for sure. That still leaves Theriot top 20. And still leaves Greene as much better, so I guess it doesn't really matter. Fine lets move to 2B then. The only 2B I would rather have over Roberts for next year are Utley, Cano, Phillips, and Upton. Then there are about 10 more I would have over DeRosa, and I like DeRosa.

Stephen Drew, Julio Lugo, Yuniesky Betancourt, Felipe Lopez, Jack Wilson, Jason Bartlett, Adam Everett, and of course, Khalil Greene You sure? Yes I am, I'd take Theriot over Wilson, Bartlett, Everett for sure. That still leaves Theriot top 20.

Carlos Guillen is no longer a SS. I'd still put him at SS over Greene. Just like I'd put DeRosa at SS over Greene.

Theriot would be top 20.

Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Derek Jeter, Troy Tulowitzki, Miguel Tejada, Carlos Guillen, Michael Young, J.J. Hardy, Rafael Furcal, Orlando Cabrera, Edgar Renteria, and Jhonny Peralta. Those are 13 SS I would rather have than Greene on our team. Peralta and Greene are close. Greene might have the edge cuz of defense. Theriot isnt far behind. I think both are average.

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better? Can you explain why youd rather have: Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B vs. Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B? How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense. You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB?? No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half. So basically, because they are right next to each other in your fantasy league you came up with this conclusion? Seriously? You would rather have Theriot at SS than Greene right now? The only conclusion that I came across when looking at the fantasy baseball numbers is that Greene and Theriot are very comparable offensively when it comes to their ranking among the other shortstops. And no I wouldnt rather have Theriot than Greene. I think Greene is the better player and plays better defense. But It isnt a huge upgrade or a team need.

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better? Can you explain why youd rather have: Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B vs. Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B? How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense. You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB?? No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half. So if player A has 20 HRs and player B has 40 SB but gets CS 120 times, they are as valuable in that league? No Caught Stealing is also worth -2.

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better? Can you explain why youd rather have: Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B vs. Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B? How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense. You're using fantasy baseball to judge the relative worth of a player? The same type of system that values a HR as much as a SB?? No i'm not. I just used fantasy baseball to compare a players offensive ranking with another player in the same positions offensive ranking. And I use a points based league, where HRs are worth 4 points, and SBs are worth 2. Greene and Theriot are right next to eachother towards the middle to lower half.

Look at Greene's splits away from PetCo park. A case can be made that, for a SS, he's actually quite a bit better than average to below average at the plate when he's not playing at the best pitchers park in baseball. He's a fly-ball hitter and that park just is not kind to his numbers. Or he was better on the road because he likes when people are yelling at him and hassling him. Or he doesnt feel pressure on the road like he does at home. No one knows. I agree that PetCo is a harder park to hit HR's in, but no one is for certain that he would put up his road numbers all the time if he was on the Cubs.

Oops, you're wrong again. How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS. I think I am taller than Shaq...there...another wrong opinion. No because you can actual test that and prove that. If you said "I think I am a better basketball player than Shaq." Then you wouldnt be wrong, because that is your opinion that can't be tested with 100% accuracy. Just stop with this nonsense.

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better? Can you explain why youd rather have: Below Average at position offense/Adequate defense at SS with Good offense and above average D at 2B vs. Above average at position offense/Very Good defense at SS with Good offense and average D at 2B? How are you judging below average and above average? I'll turn to fantasy baseball because they take into account every hit and aspect to a players offensive game. I would say both players are average to below average at their position offensively. The only think Greene brings is power. Whereas Theriot brings speed. Plus Greene has better defense.

And Greene's power and top shelf defense wouldn't make our team better? He would make us better, but I think Roberts would make us even more better. I dont think we need a low average, low OBP, low in the batting order HR guy on this team. I think we need a High average, high obp, lots of speed top of the order guy.

Oops, you're wrong again. How can I be wrong on my opinion? I think I know what I want. And if I would rather have Roberts and Theriot then thats a fact. I cant be wrong about that. I would like to have Roberts and DeRosa, but I dont think they would move Mark to SS.

Are you talking about Khalil Greene?? .330 OBP not AVG???? Oh hell no. I would much rather have Brian Roberts than Khalil Greene. I've posted many times before that I'd rather have Theriot and Roberts rather than Greene and DeRosa. But lets not get into the Khalil Greene argument. I want Roberts because he makes our team better. He fits our needs. Not only do I want him because he is a leadoff hitter, but he does everything else that I mentioned above. If he was only a #2 hitter then I would still want him, but having him be a leadoff hitter makes him that much more valuable.

Why are you so overly optimistic? Yeah, he is awesome and he will (probably) outproduce anything we had a catcher the last 10 years, but nothing is certain. Based on his minor league numbers, we can assume two options: (yours/optimisitc) or (others/pessimistic). Well there really are only 2 things you can base your opinions on. Past stats and actually watching the player play. Pie and Soto have past stats. But I watched Pie play and I'm not excited about him. I hope he will be good some day, but just watching his approach at the plate and his swing I am very pessimistic. But watching Soto up there, you see a completely different player. He goes up there and his swing is perfect. He seems like he has way better hand eye coordination than Pie.

If this is true, it would be nice if this "silent majority" would pipe up a little more often. These kind of arguments are a lot of fun to read. That said, why is it so hard to understand why having a typical "leadoff" type hitter is meaningless. You all admit that a team full of Pujols', Vlad's and Miggy's would be awesome, and I agree that it would be impossible to afford 8 or 9 guys like this, but if this super team would do well with no speedy 8-10 HR, .375 OBP guys, why won't you admit that a speedy 8-10 HR, .375 OBP guy is not a necessity on any team. The reason Roberts helps this team is that he is a good player, not because he is a good "leadoff guy". This has been said a dozen times. The reason Soriano leading off isn't that bad is because he's still a good hitter, even though he strikes out a lot. You want your good hitters at the top of the line-up so that they will get more at bats. Whether they steal bases or not is irrelevant. Theriot steals bases pretty well...but batting him second was a horrible idea since he is not very good at anything else. He got a lot of at bats, and a lot of them were poor. The reason I think it's hard to win this argument for the "new school" guys is because Roberts is a good player. He would do well in the leadoff spot because he is good, so people are using more flawed logic to imply that he is well suited for the leadoff spot because of some specific trait, instead of just his overall hitting abilities. Whatever, at least this thread has some new energy. I think the main argument is that I want Soriano out of the leadoff spot. I want his power and RBI potential lower in the lineup. Then you put a guy like Roberts in the leadoff spot whom doesnt really have that RBI potential because he doesnt hit for power so we arent hurting him by putting him there, and he will get on base for the other guys to drive him in. The guy at the top of the lineup should get on base, while the other guys should drive him in. Soriano is made to drive people in but he is not cuz he is at the top of the lineup.

Why is everyone so pessimistic about Soto? Yeah I understand cuz of Patterson, and Pie, and others that were supposed to be good, or Theriot having a great sample 2 years ago. But Soto doesnt seem to have the flaws in his swing like those guys. Soto DOMINATED in the minors last year, and when he came up he just looked so comfortable and awesome. His power is tremendous. Just watching this guy play everyday, I can confidently say that he will put up close to the numbers I mentioned.

It's not really about him starting off the game. It's him in that spot of the order. Even if he isnt leading off an inning, he would still be batting with guys like Theriot, Pie, and the pitcher in front of him instead of Roberts, Fukudome, Lee, and Ramirez. This means that there is a high likelihood that those guys probably wont be on base when he is up. But guys like Roberts, Lee etc... get on base a lot.