#MeToo

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Re: #MeToo

Postby cl smooth » Sat May 07, 2022 2:47 am

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sat May 07, 2022 12:56 pm

cl smooth wrote:https://twitter.com/deadline/status/1522738593650946049


There's been a lot of smoke around him for a while.

And even back on the OG Wonder Years, he and the actor who played his brother were accused of sexually harassing a crew member on the show, and the whole thing was settled out of court.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Rob » Sat May 07, 2022 11:33 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
cl smooth wrote:https://twitter.com/deadline/status/1522738593650946049


There's been a lot of smoke around him for a while.

And even back on the OG Wonder Years, he and the actor who played his brother were accused of sexually harassing a crew member on the show, and the whole thing was settled out of court.


Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but wouldn't he have been an adolescent at the time?

That sort of thing might have been forgivable if he'd matured out of it. Sounds like he might not have, though...
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Re: #MeToo

Postby UK » Sun May 08, 2022 12:25 am

Rob wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
cl smooth wrote:https://twitter.com/deadline/status/1522738593650946049


There's been a lot of smoke around him for a while.

And even back on the OG Wonder Years, he and the actor who played his brother were accused of sexually harassing a crew member on the show, and the whole thing was settled out of court.


Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but wouldn't he have been an adolescent at the time?

That sort of thing might have been forgivable if he'd matured out of it. Sounds like he might not have, though...


Age can't make it defensible. If it required being settled out of court, I can't imagine it being chalked up to youth.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sun May 08, 2022 3:39 pm

UK wrote:
Rob wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
There's been a lot of smoke around him for a while.

And even back on the OG Wonder Years, he and the actor who played his brother were accused of sexually harassing a crew member on the show, and the whole thing was settled out of court.


Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but wouldn't he have been an adolescent at the time?

That sort of thing might have been forgivable if he'd matured out of it. Sounds like he might not have, though...


Age can't make it defensible. If it required being settled out of court, I can't imagine it being chalked up to youth.


Yeah, that it got elevated to that point, and that this was nearly 20 years ago, when this horsefeathers was even more likely to just go away, shows it was, IMO, pretty bad.

He was also accused of workplace abuse in 2018. The case was tossed, but because the judge didn't agree that it was gender-based:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/busin ... t-1140475/

With regard to the first three causes of action related to civil rights violations arising from gender violence, Fujie found Hwang alleged that Savage’s conduct was driven by a desire to not be touched and a personal dislike of her, and the judge found “Nothing suggests that such dislike was due to her gender.”

“Plaintiff has alleged that Savage engaged in a number of bad acts, but none of the acts alleged appear to be related to gender,” she writes in the Aug. 29 decision, which is posted below. “Though Plaintiff notes Savage was ‘aggressive’ and ‘volatile’ toward women, she neither alleges that such aggression and volatility was due to their gender nor that Savage was not equally aggressive and volatile toward male crew members.”


So, basically, "sounds like you're an abusive horsefeathers to everyone who works for you, and not just women." What a charmer!
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Rob » Sun May 08, 2022 4:53 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Yeah, that it got elevated to that point, and that this was nearly 20 years ago, when this horsefeathers was even more likely to just go away, shows it was, IMO, pretty bad.


Interesting take. I initially interpreted it the other way. As in, there's a kid famous for his innocent looks who is starring in this wholesome show -- and if I was the company producing it, I would happily pay some piddly sum of money to make a claim, however spurious, go away -- lest it interfere with the cash cow.

That said, I can totally see it your way as well.

He was also accused of workplace abuse in 2018...


Well then why are we re-litigating this horsefeathers from the 80s? Jeez. You lead with this one next time, containing in-depth allegations about a grown man engaging in poor behavior, and we don't have to analyze a story with sparse details about this guy who was just a kid at the time. If you'd started with this one, we could have moved straight past the other posts.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Sun May 08, 2022 7:10 pm

Because it was just as bad then as it is now, and it shows how far back his track record goes. There shouldn't be some kind of window or timeframe of when we'll look differently at what is always unacceptable behavior.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Rob » Mon May 09, 2022 11:29 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:Because it was just as bad then as it is now, and it shows how far back his track record goes. There shouldn't be some kind of window or timeframe of when we'll look differently at what is always unacceptable behavior.


The behavior isn't any better, but I am always going to be more forgiving of juvenile misdeeds than adult ones.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon May 09, 2022 1:04 pm

I mean, that's certainly one way to make it sound like he got busted for TPing someone's house or something, as opposed to him and his co-worker getting sued for sexual harassment.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby chopsx9 » Mon May 09, 2022 1:10 pm

Rob wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Because it was just as bad then as it is now, and it shows how far back his track record goes. There shouldn't be some kind of window or timeframe of when we'll look differently at what is always unacceptable behavior.


The behavior isn't any better, but I am always going to be more forgiving of juvenile misdeeds than adult ones.


Absolutely, there are laws in place to support that. The troubling aspect here is that there was a suit in the first instance which you would think would be enough of a slap in the face to force some self reflection. The fear is there is enough smoke to suggest it may be habitual. The details are obviously important; you just hope the court/lawyers get it right.
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Stone added: "Lou's probably grumpy, because he only went 3-for-11 against me with no RBIs."

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Re: #MeToo

Postby CubinNY » Mon May 09, 2022 1:37 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
UK wrote:
Rob wrote:
Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but wouldn't he have been an adolescent at the time?

That sort of thing might have been forgivable if he'd matured out of it. Sounds like he might not have, though...


Age can't make it defensible. If it required being settled out of court, I can't imagine it being chalked up to youth.


Yeah, that it got elevated to that point, and that this was nearly 20 years ago, when this horsefeathers was even more likely to just go away, shows it was, IMO, pretty bad.

He was also accused of workplace abuse in 2018. The case was tossed, but because the judge didn't agree that it was gender-based:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/busin ... t-1140475/

With regard to the first three causes of action related to civil rights violations arising from gender violence, Fujie found Hwang alleged that Savage’s conduct was driven by a desire to not be touched and a personal dislike of her, and the judge found “Nothing suggests that such dislike was due to her gender.”

“Plaintiff has alleged that Savage engaged in a number of bad acts, but none of the acts alleged appear to be related to gender,” she writes in the Aug. 29 decision, which is posted below. “Though Plaintiff notes Savage was ‘aggressive’ and ‘volatile’ toward women, she neither alleges that such aggression and volatility was due to their gender nor that Savage was not equally aggressive and volatile toward male crew members.”


So, basically, "sounds like you're an abusive horsefeathers to everyone who works for you, and not just women." What a charmer!

There is nothing in there that suggests or even hints at sexual harassment. Same with Murry. I think it's important to distinguish between being an horsefeathers and being a sexual predator. It seems like that distinction is not made.

No one should be subjected to horrible treatment, sexual or otherwise, but it doesn't sound to me like this is a me too thing.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby chopsx9 » Mon May 09, 2022 1:48 pm

CubinNY wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:
UK wrote:
Age can't make it defensible. If it required being settled out of court, I can't imagine it being chalked up to youth.


Yeah, that it got elevated to that point, and that this was nearly 20 years ago, when this horsefeathers was even more likely to just go away, shows it was, IMO, pretty bad.

He was also accused of workplace abuse in 2018. The case was tossed, but because the judge didn't agree that it was gender-based:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/busin ... t-1140475/

With regard to the first three causes of action related to civil rights violations arising from gender violence, Fujie found Hwang alleged that Savage’s conduct was driven by a desire to not be touched and a personal dislike of her, and the judge found “Nothing suggests that such dislike was due to her gender.”

“Plaintiff has alleged that Savage engaged in a number of bad acts, but none of the acts alleged appear to be related to gender,” she writes in the Aug. 29 decision, which is posted below. “Though Plaintiff notes Savage was ‘aggressive’ and ‘volatile’ toward women, she neither alleges that such aggression and volatility was due to their gender nor that Savage was not equally aggressive and volatile toward male crew members.”


So, basically, "sounds like you're an abusive horsefeathers to everyone who works for you, and not just women." What a charmer!

There is nothing in there that suggests or even hints at sexual harassment. Same with Murry. I think it's important to distinguish between being an horsefeathers and being a sexual predator. It seems like that distinction is not made.

No one should be subjected to horrible treatment, sexual or otherwise, but it doesn't sound to me like this is a me too thing.


It also has to be significant that - in the original instance - no criminal charges were filed. This wasn't a case where the victim was hesitant to come forward so it's not an outlandish assumption that criminal charges would have been filed had judges/DA deemed it appropriate. Details in cases like this are kept vague to protect victim rights - rightfully so and I am NOT suggesting that should be changed - but it does have the effect of muddying the waters in some situations.
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Stone added: "Lou's probably grumpy, because he only went 3-for-11 against me with no RBIs."

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon May 09, 2022 1:51 pm

Sexual harassment is not necessarily something that can result in a criminal charge.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby chopsx9 » Mon May 09, 2022 3:00 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:Sexual harassment is not necessarily something that can result in a criminal charge.


Absolutely, but it can be an indication of the severity of the act. Again I said CAN - if someone has more specific details obviously that would be illuminating.
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Stone added: "Lou's probably grumpy, because he only went 3-for-11 against me with no RBIs."

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon May 09, 2022 3:15 pm

Sure, but sexual harassment is unacceptable regardless of whether or not someone can be criminally prosecuted. It can and usually does make someone's life absolutely miserable, yet will often never technically rise above the level of, say, a company's HR department MAYBE stepping in.

Personally, I think that the repeated response to these sorts of things is some variation of, "well, there were no charges/it didn't go to court/nobody was arrested/etc." that attempts to minimize what happened (granted, the motivations of the people doing this are often wildly different) is pretty horsefeathers.

Regardless of whether or not the legal system was involved, sexual harassment is unacceptable, full stop.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby chopsx9 » Tue May 10, 2022 5:15 am

Sammy Sofa wrote:Sure, but sexual harassment is unacceptable regardless of whether or not someone can be criminally prosecuted. It can and usually does make someone's life absolutely miserable, yet will often never technically rise above the level of, say, a company's HR department MAYBE stepping in.

Personally, I think that the repeated response to these sorts of things is some variation of, "well, there were no charges/it didn't go to court/nobody was arrested/etc." that attempts to minimize what happened (granted, the motivations of the people doing this are often wildly different) is pretty horsefeathers.

Regardless of whether or not the legal system was involved, sexual harassment is unacceptable, full stop.


Who has said it is acceptable? Not a single post has suggested it is acceptable. The initial Savage instance resulted in a civil suit. Whatever they did was unacceptable. But if no criminal charges were filed its a reasonable assumption that - for example - a violent act wasn't involved. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT ACCEPTABLE but it is pretty horsefeathers and insulting to people who have suffered violence to paint them with the same brush.
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Stone added: "Lou's probably grumpy, because he only went 3-for-11 against me with no RBIs."

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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Tue May 10, 2022 4:29 pm

chopsx9 wrote:
Sammy Sofa wrote:Sure, but sexual harassment is unacceptable regardless of whether or not someone can be criminally prosecuted. It can and usually does make someone's life absolutely miserable, yet will often never technically rise above the level of, say, a company's HR department MAYBE stepping in.

Personally, I think that the repeated response to these sorts of things is some variation of, "well, there were no charges/it didn't go to court/nobody was arrested/etc." that attempts to minimize what happened (granted, the motivations of the people doing this are often wildly different) is pretty horsefeathers.

Regardless of whether or not the legal system was involved, sexual harassment is unacceptable, full stop.


Who has said it is acceptable? Not a single post has suggested it is acceptable. The initial Savage instance resulted in a civil suit. Whatever they did was unacceptable. But if no criminal charges were filed its a reasonable assumption that - for example - a violent act wasn't involved. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT ACCEPTABLE but it is pretty horsefeathers and insulting to people who have suffered violence to paint them with the same brush.


Then take it up with the #MeToo movement; it's also been about sexual harassment since jump.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Derwood » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:06 pm

There is an HBO docu-series created by Evan Rachel Wood that covers her push for better laws regarding sexual/domestic abusers. The details of her relationship with Marilyn Manson are really harrowing (even worse than the stuff I already knew).

Definitely worth watching
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Ding Dong Johnson » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:43 pm

Derwood wrote:There is an HBO docu-series created by Evan Rachel Wood that covers her push for better laws regarding sexual/domestic abusers. The details of her relationship with Marilyn Manson are really harrowing (even worse than the stuff I already knew).

Definitely worth watching

I had this in my list for a while and finally got around to it last night. I want to say I got lucky with my daughter, but the reality is I consciously raised her to be the strong and independent woman she is. She's fortunate to have a terrific support system around her at all times when things may not be going her way. It hurts when I see people like ERW suffer for so much of their lives, partly because she didn't have what my daughter has. At one point she wanted to kill herself, and her dad's response was "I'm in a play right now but here's the number of some dude I know who could probably help you". WTF???? People suck, but men are the worst.

I have ignored Marilyn Manson's entire career and don't follow celebrity personal lives so I didn't know about any of this before watching. It was horrifying to think about all of the people who knew what was going on but didn't do anything. Not to spoil it too much, but the end credits have a guy who says he was a drummer with MM for 9 months, and everything those women said are true and horsefeathers anyone who won't listen to them. Great, but also horsefeathers YOU FOR BEING AROUND IT FOR 9 MONTHS AND NOT SAYING ANYTHING UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE FOR SO MANY WOMEN. We all have to do better all the time.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:11 pm

Not a Manson fan but someone gave me his autobiography. Dude had a horrific childhood but that doesn't excuse any of his actions as an adult.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Sammy Sofa » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:16 pm

Old Style wrote:Not a Manson fan but someone gave me his autobiography. Dude had a horrific childhood but that doesn't excuse any of his actions as an adult.


The scuttlebutt has long been that that is very purposely a "Marilyn Manson" biography, and a ton of the horsefeathers in there he and Strauss made up with the idea that it's the character/persona/whatever the horsefeathers's story.
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Re: #MeToo

Postby Old Style » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:23 pm

Sammy Sofa wrote:
Old Style wrote:Not a Manson fan but someone gave me his autobiography. Dude had a horrific childhood but that doesn't excuse any of his actions as an adult.


The scuttlebutt has long been that that is very purposely a "Marilyn Manson" biography, and a ton of the horsefeathers in there he and Strauss made up with the idea that it's the character/persona/whatever the horsefeathers's story.

Wouldn't surprise me. It's been a long time since I read it but I remember feeling like there was a pretty obvious point in the book where he got bored with the process and just mailed in the rest of it.
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