2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

User avatar
Cubswin11
Hall of Fame
Posts: 28934
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:17 pm
x 10201
x 6576

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Cubswin11 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:06 am

Hrubes20 wrote:
Tim wrote:1) Davis
2) Caissie
3) PCA
4) Wicks
5) Christian Hernandez
6) Alcantara
7) Triantos
8) Preciado
9) Kilian
10) Amaya
11) Pinango
12) Made
13) Herz
14) Marquez
15) Kohl Franklin
16) Howard
17) Jensen
18) Christian Franklin
19) Pablo Aliendo
20) Nelson


IIRC, Law was one of the highest on Wicks predraft, so it makes sense that he would be higher on him in the Cubs system than anyone else.

Law being high on a guy and sticking to his guns, count me shocked
0 x
Screw Pitchers

Hrubes20
All-Star
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:09 pm
x 46
x 149

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Hrubes20 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:57 pm

Cubswin11 wrote:
Hrubes20 wrote:
Tim wrote:1) Davis
2) Caissie
3) PCA
4) Wicks
5) Christian Hernandez
6) Alcantara
7) Triantos
8) Preciado
9) Kilian
10) Amaya
11) Pinango
12) Made
13) Herz
14) Marquez
15) Kohl Franklin
16) Howard
17) Jensen
18) Christian Franklin
19) Pablo Aliendo
20) Nelson


IIRC, Law was one of the highest on Wicks predraft, so it makes sense that he would be higher on him in the Cubs system than anyone else.

Law being high on a guy and sticking to his guns, count me shocked


Yeah, like it or not, Law is not quick to change his stance on players. This goes for both players that improve and for players that don't progress.
0 x

Tryptamine
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6991
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 pm
x 16
x 467

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Tryptamine » Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:44 pm

Not sure I agree with Herz at #13. I think there's a very real chance he's a top 100 guy according to some publications by midseason 2022.
0 x

Bertz
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 5525
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:59 pm
x 1905
x 2954

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Bertz » Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:26 pm

Tryptamine wrote:Not sure I agree with Herz at #13. I think there's a very real chance he's a top 100 guy according to some publications by midseason 2022.


I think as a funky lefty with control problems he's, rightly or wrongly, assumed by most of the national types to wind up as a reliever. I think him, Marquez, and Jensen are all in that same boat
0 x

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 26911
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 971
x 2092

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby CubinNY » Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:35 pm

Bertz wrote:
Tryptamine wrote:Not sure I agree with Herz at #13. I think there's a very real chance he's a top 100 guy according to some publications by midseason 2022.


I think as a funky lefty with control problems he's, rightly or wrongly, assumed by most of the national types to wind up as a reliever. I think him, Marquez, and Jensen are all in that same boat

They really need starters.
0 x

Bertz
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 5525
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:59 pm
x 1905
x 2954

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Bertz » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:45 pm

CubinNY wrote:
Bertz wrote:
Tryptamine wrote:Not sure I agree with Herz at #13. I think there's a very real chance he's a top 100 guy according to some publications by midseason 2022.


I think as a funky lefty with control problems he's, rightly or wrongly, assumed by most of the national types to wind up as a reliever. I think him, Marquez, and Jensen are all in that same boat

They really need starters.


The good news is that at this point they have the numbers. Kilian and Wicks are probably the only sure fire MLB starters (barring injury obviously), but every rotation below Iowa will have at least a couple of legitimate prospects in it

AA - Marquez, Espinoza, Vizcaino, Bain, Jensen
A+ - Wicks, Herz, Kohl Franklin and Riley Thompson if they're alive
A - Palencia, Gray, Moreno

There's not a monster guy to hang your hat on, though maybe they end up with one with the #7 pick in the draft, but having several guys at each level is how you end up with a few surviving all the various waves of attrition.
0 x

Tryptamine
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6991
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 pm
x 16
x 467

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Tryptamine » Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:59 pm

Bertz wrote:
CubinNY wrote:
Bertz wrote:
I think as a funky lefty with control problems he's, rightly or wrongly, assumed by most of the national types to wind up as a reliever. I think him, Marquez, and Jensen are all in that same boat

They really need starters.


The good news is that at this point they have the numbers. Kilian and Wicks are probably the only sure fire MLB starters (barring injury obviously), but every rotation below Iowa will have at least a couple of legitimate prospects in it

AA - Marquez, Espinoza, Vizcaino, Bain, Jensen
A+ - Wicks, Herz, Kohl Franklin and Riley Thompson if they're alive
A - Palencia, Gray, Moreno

There's not a monster guy to hang your hat on, though maybe they end up with one with the #7 pick in the draft, but having several guys at each level is how you end up with a few surviving all the various waves of attrition.


Hopefully they end up with Dylan Lesko who is a pretty safe bet, assuming his arm stays attached, to be a quality mlb start. Being able to have Lesko and Wicks take up 2/5 of a rotation would take a lot of the burden off the other guys developing into starters.
1 x

TomtheBombadil
Superstar
Posts: 11691
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 1234
x 1203

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby TomtheBombadil » Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:01 am

CubinNY wrote:They really need starters.


There's a not not serious case that SP is actually the strength of the farm right now with the hitters having taken so few PAs (even Davis only has 600 and change in MiLB, was the only guy on the 60 during 2020). I actually have 4 (edit: 5, duh Herz) in my top most latest Top 10 (Kilian, Gallardo, Wicks, Gray). Between those 5, I think there's a guy hopefully two:

- Kilian's done what you want a possible first division SP prospect to do out of college in their first full season: reach the upper minors and set up the MLs. He absolutely dominated low minors hitters, didn't allow a HR until AA to go with meaty K% and K-BB%. Less dominant in AA but nothing too egregious (maybe the 3 HRs in 15 IP for the AA Smokies but overall allowed just 5 in 78.2 IP at the level), missed a couple weeks towards the end too, but then rebounded with probably the best all around SP performance in the AFL. After Davis, he's the most likely prospect with a multi-year and first division starter ceiling to debut in 2022

- Wicks was the consensus top LHP and NCAA pitcher in the last draft, solid NCAA career, plenty of tools, as a first already has some quality trade Value too, and could move fast. He and Kilian are here to not go out and spend on (the still very good) John Lackey and Cole Hamels under a cap leaving rare FA opportunities like Bryce Harper available to other teams

- The other two are younger and on more ideal tracks. Gallardo's got more innings potential than anyone else they have in the minors just on his age and last year's workloads, another top ranked amateur too. I was disappointed to see Gray only show up in one top 20 (FanGraphs) given this rush to separate the teens, but yeah he's someone who can be noticed fast and fly up all kinds of lists. As tooled up and athletic as anyone in the org, LH, already has some size and physicality pushing 200+ at 6'3", multiple spins, high spin stuff in general, fastballs play up in the zone, potential for command, faced top competition as an amateur, top recruit for a perennial CWS contender as a P/OF, and came right into the pros and dominated across the boards.

- Herz's command is a little rough, which is why I didn't mention him pre-edit, but yeah there's a shot he can be a SP in this ML meta where not so many pitchers even reach 100 IP

Beyond those 5 there's double digit pitchers including a 2019 first round pick in Jensen who haven't taken themselves too far out of the hunt in an org that seems to want pitchers having at least 3 pitches (pretty much everyone, especially newer or younger players, throws a high two seam and four seam) and some SP experience anyway. Basically it's an area of the org I think sees a big of a renaissance this year. Finally being the lowest velocity rotation in the league, lots of velocity in the minors, was a huge problem in real time but after is most something extremely influential but relatively easy to improve for big overall gains
0 x
Spoiler: show
Image


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveler

User avatar
UMFan83
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 86195
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Southport Ave
x 4535
x 7342
Contact:

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby UMFan83 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:22 pm

Kiley McDaniel's top 100 MLB prospects list on ESPN. Davis is the only Cub on the list:

28. Brennen Davis, CF, Chicago Cubs
Age: 22 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Type: Long-limbed elite physical skills with good feel

Davis has premium physical skills with premium makeup and has outperformed all pre-draft expectations, but finally ran into some resistance last spring with a ballooning strikeout rate at Double-A. Davis was a multisport standout in high school who was late to being a full-time baseball player. He's a rangy 6-foot-4 with plus speed, a plus arm, good feel for defending in center field, along with plus raw power.

The strikeout rate issue is now the manifestation of concerns some had in high school that raw talent and ability to adjust had overcome. Having longer arms makes covering the whole plate more difficult and Davis may be fitting into a type -- the rangy outfielder with below-average contact rate who is above average at everything else. If that's what he is -- say, .245 with some walks and 20-25 homers and fringe-to-average center-field defense -- that's an above-average everyday player who made the choice to lean into power rather than contact, when forced to pick one.
0 x
Win it for Fred

TomtheBombadil
Superstar
Posts: 11691
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 1234
x 1203

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby TomtheBombadil » Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:41 pm

I like the note on makeup as I believe it’s been key to Davis’ rapid rise and surprising polish as a former two sport HS athlete turned MLB prospect. It’s not just that he’s a solid dude with a good work ethic, that’s not particularly unique there’s tons of good people who work hard. He grew up on a farm with a single mom, father was a decade+ starter in the NBA and currently runs a college basketball program. He may have been light on a standard baseball resume coming in but I think that situation helped foster alot of much needed confidence and professionalism ahead of his years

Win a ML job please! Alls I’m asking is for is the Bernie Williams (first to debut of the 90s Yankees) of the 2020s+ Cubs
0 x
Spoiler: show
Image


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveler

User avatar
UMFan83
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 86195
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Southport Ave
x 4535
x 7342
Contact:

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby UMFan83 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:29 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:I like the note on makeup as I believe it’s been key to Davis’ rapid rise and surprising polish as a former two sport HS athlete turned MLB prospect. It’s not just that he’s a solid dude with a good work ethic, that’s not particularly unique there’s tons of good people who work hard. He grew up on a farm with a single mom, father was a decade+ starter in the NBA and currently runs a college basketball program. He may have been light on a standard baseball resume coming in but I think that situation helped foster alot of much needed confidence and professionalism ahead of his years

Win a ML job please! Alls I’m asking is for is the Bernie Williams (first to debut of the 90s Yankees) of the 2020s+ Cubs


I'm confused at how Reggie Theus impacts Davis in any way other than his genes. I thought he played no role in his life. Or do you just mean that since Theus had the makeup to be a professional athlete, Brennen may have inherited similar traits?
0 x
Win it for Fred

User avatar
Proven Veteran
All-Star
Posts: 2574
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Oakland, CA
x 2443
x 389

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Proven Veteran » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:29 pm

UMFan83 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:I like the note on makeup as I believe it’s been key to Davis’ rapid rise and surprising polish as a former two sport HS athlete turned MLB prospect. It’s not just that he’s a solid dude with a good work ethic, that’s not particularly unique there’s tons of good people who work hard. He grew up on a farm with a single mom, father was a decade+ starter in the NBA and currently runs a college basketball program. He may have been light on a standard baseball resume coming in but I think that situation helped foster alot of much needed confidence and professionalism ahead of his years

Win a ML job please! Alls I’m asking is for is the Bernie Williams (first to debut of the 90s Yankees) of the 2020s+ Cubs


I'm confused at how Reggie Theus impacts Davis in any way other than his genes. I thought he played no role in his life. Or do you just mean that since Theus had the makeup to be a professional athlete, Brennen may have inherited similar traits?

I had no idea that Reggie Theus was his father.
0 x

User avatar
UMFan83
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 86195
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:42 pm
Location: Southport Ave
x 4535
x 7342
Contact:

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby UMFan83 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:35 pm

Proven Veteran wrote:
UMFan83 wrote:
TomtheBombadil wrote:I like the note on makeup as I believe it’s been key to Davis’ rapid rise and surprising polish as a former two sport HS athlete turned MLB prospect. It’s not just that he’s a solid dude with a good work ethic, that’s not particularly unique there’s tons of good people who work hard. He grew up on a farm with a single mom, father was a decade+ starter in the NBA and currently runs a college basketball program. He may have been light on a standard baseball resume coming in but I think that situation helped foster alot of much needed confidence and professionalism ahead of his years

Win a ML job please! Alls I’m asking is for is the Bernie Williams (first to debut of the 90s Yankees) of the 2020s+ Cubs


I'm confused at how Reggie Theus impacts Davis in any way other than his genes. I thought he played no role in his life. Or do you just mean that since Theus had the makeup to be a professional athlete, Brennen may have inherited similar traits?

I had no idea that Reggie Theus was his father.


I didn't either until I read his post and googled it. Between this and Dick Butkus's rebirth as a twitter god, the Hang Time coaches have a new level of relevancy in my life.
2 x
Win it for Fred

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 26911
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 971
x 2092

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby CubinNY » Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:26 pm

0 x

Tryptamine
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6991
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 pm
x 16
x 467

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Tryptamine » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:59 pm



I think this coincides with my top 10 a lot more than most lists. I still think Preciado deserves a top 10 slot, but other than that I'm in agreement.
0 x

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 58904
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 773
x 8862

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:02 pm

Yeah, unsurprisingly I think this is better than most of the national rankings. Though you gotta give up on Marquez in the Top 10 in a system this deep.
0 x

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 26911
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 971
x 2092

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby CubinNY » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:42 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Yeah, unsurprisingly I think this is better than most of the national rankings. Though you gotta give up on Marquez in the Top 10 in a system this deep.

I agree. Smith still seems to think Marquez is a potential starter, I'm not sure most other experts see it that way.
0 x

Tryptamine
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 6991
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 pm
x 16
x 467

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Tryptamine » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:49 pm

I still have Marquez in my top 10. After 2020 he was a guy who was a few more months of performance from being a top 50 prospect in the game, then 2021 happened and made it more unlikely he remains a starter. Still, if he's able to hold up to a starters workload, his upside is immense. From what I remember, his velocity held pretty well in 5 inning stints. If the Cubs used him like the Rays use their starters, I think there's a pretty substantial chance he can fill the SP role while throwing about 130 innings.
0 x

TomtheBombadil
Superstar
Posts: 11691
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 1234
x 1203

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:17 pm

Marquez was 10/11 for me too. Less because I think the upside is huge at this stage and more because his last game was a ML one, he’ll be in the upper minors, velocity generally plays even if he’s not a particularly skilled pitcher during the pre-arb years esp, velocity in particular might play up for a staff (as a whole) that featured the lowest velocity in the league for 2021…When the competition for top ten either didn’t play well, dominate, or spent the year in the lowest minors for not even a couple hundreds PAs…

Also I noticed Hernandez starting to fill out, looks good esp the lower body. I comped the frame to Josh Donaldson way back when and still see it, looks like they locked him in a room with a squat rack all winter
0 x
Spoiler: show
Image


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveler

User avatar
Transmogrified Tiger
Inner-Circle HOF
Posts: 58904
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:23 pm
Location: Greater St. Louis
x 773
x 8862

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Transmogrified Tiger » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:35 pm

TomtheBombadil wrote:Marquez was 10/11 for me too. Less because I think the upside is huge at this stage and more because his last game was a ML one, he’ll be in the upper minors


Will he? He has 0.2 pro innings the last 2 years, 26 career innings above low A, and it's unclear if he's 100% healthy right now. I don't think he needs to be a 200 IP star to be Top-10 worthy, but he's functionally missed 2 straight seasons, doesn't have a clean arm, is 23 now, and had big control issues that could force him to the pen even in perfect health once he has to face hitters in the high minors. To me he's closer to where Fangraphs put him at 20 than he is to being above the Canario/Velazquez/Morel triad of toolsy bats, or even Gray's blank canvas or Vizcaino's more certain health. He's more or less LHP Anderson Espinoza, which is a great talent to have stirring around the 20 mark of the system, but also not one you're doing a ton of long term dreaming about either.
0 x

Bertz
5-Time All-Star
Posts: 5525
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:59 pm
x 1905
x 2954

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby Bertz » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:41 pm

Tryptamine wrote:


I think this coincides with my top 10 a lot more than most lists. I still think Preciado deserves a top 10 slot, but other than that I'm in agreement.


Yeah, Preciado should be there, and I think for someone who already presupposes that Wicks will add a bit of velocity, it's kind of weird to have him down at #8. But really good list from Bryan like you'd expect.
0 x

TomtheBombadil
Superstar
Posts: 11691
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 1234
x 1203

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby TomtheBombadil » Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:06 pm

Transmogrified Tiger wrote:Will he? He has 0.2 pro innings the last 2 years, 26 career innings above low A, and it's unclear if he's 100% healthy right now. I don't think he needs to be a 200 IP star to be Top-10 worthy, but he's functionally missed 2 straight seasons, doesn't have a clean arm, is 23 now, and had big control issues that could force him to the pen even in perfect health once he has to face hitters in the high minors. To me he's closer to where Fangraphs put him at 20 than he is to being above the Canario/Velazquez/Morel triad of toolsy bats, or even Gray's blank canvas or Vizcaino's more certain health. He's more or less LHP Anderson Espinoza, which is a great talent to have stirring around the 20 mark of the system, but also not one you're doing a ton of long term dreaming about either.


Fair points worthy of downgrading that “will be” significantly tbh. Fair points all around really

That bat trio you mention also offers a good framing reference for Marquez. None seem like starters but there’s plenty of work for cheap hitters with power and versatility and each are less likely to flame out entirely in 2022

Alrighty so down he goes
0 x
Spoiler: show
Image


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveler

TomtheBombadil
Superstar
Posts: 11691
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm
x 1234
x 1203

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby TomtheBombadil » Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:10 pm

ProspectsLive put up their Cubs 30, the last 20 and most writeups are on their Patreon but this is the top 10:

Davis
PCA
Hernandez
Alcantara
Wicks
Kilian
Howard
Caissie
Vizcaino
Preciado

I’ll take Howard in two top tens, appreciate Wicks and Kilian being a little higher than most
0 x
Spoiler: show
Image


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveler

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 26911
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 971
x 2092

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby CubinNY » Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:34 pm

I'm really hoping that the Cubs have finally figured out player development because it looks like they have a lot of talented young people. It seems like they've sort of figured out how to cobble together bullpen arms, but I'm really hoping the position prospects develop. It's a Ricketts wet dream of cheap labor potential.
0 x

CubinNY
Hall of Fame
Posts: 26911
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Pike Road, Al
x 971
x 2092

Re: 2021-2022 Offseason Prospect Lists and Rankings

Postby CubinNY » Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:00 pm

0 x


Return to “Minor Leagues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests